Have you ever had a moment while driving where you had to turn the music down just to concentrate on where you’re going? Well believe it or not, our very own brains generate this background noise that clouds our thinking on a daily basis!
In today’s episode we speak with Saba Hocek regarding how we can cut out the noise surrounding our everyday lives in order to help our inner geniuses emerge and reach our highest potentials
If you would like to learn more about Saba visit her website at: https://selfempoweredminds.com/
Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/fireandearthpodcast/
Transcript
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kathygruver: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the fire earth Podcast. I am your co host Kathy Gruber.
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Jason Mefford: And I’m Jason Medford, and today we have a special guest, talking about a topic that I am very excited to hear about so Sava welcome.
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To the show.
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Jason Mefford: Hey, why don’t why don’t you first just just take a minute and let let the listeners kind of know a little bit about you and then I like I said, I’m excited to get into this topic because you told us what it was going to be beforehand and I got to find out what this is. So take it away.
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Saba Hocek: Okay, so, um,
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Saba Hocek: Well then I my get a good this is all about hypnosis, but my background is actually in computers. So I did that for many years, basically.
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Saba Hocek: Did application development and at one point I became very curious now how the mind works, me, me, because I’m very intuitive.
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Saba Hocek: And so, and my background I’m Turkish so we read Turkish coffee cups and it’s a gift that I have and I wanted to understand better how the brain works. Now, I was able to do this.
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Saba Hocek: So I figured hypnosis might be an interesting way to understand how the brain works. And we’re there. I just became fascinated with hypnosis.
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Saba Hocek: And I was an entrepreneur. I was self employed. So I figured, you know what, I’m going to give a workshop and teach people how to do self hypnosis for weight loss.
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Saba Hocek: At the end of that workshop, although I had no intention of changing my career, I began to get more and more clients and at one point I just said, You know what, I’m juggling all these things.
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Saba Hocek: I’m just gonna go for. I’m going to go straight into hypnosis, I can always go back to my application development.
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Saba Hocek: At any point. And that’s what I did. And since for the past 12 years I’ve been doing hypnosis and biofeedback which is essentially a computerized version of acupuncture. So I’m not only working with the client client in their unconscious unconscious mind but also down to the Oregon level.
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Saba Hocek: So we’re releasing stress blockages from the organs, as well as in the mind.
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Saba Hocek: And recently I developed a process called the genius activator, which helps us tap into our inner genius, because I truly believe that we all have an ingenious and it’s something that I’m really passionate about.
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Saba Hocek: Mainly because
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Saba Hocek: As a child, and primarily as an adolescent. I was told that by teachers that you know you’re just incompetent. Don’t worry about you just can’t do it and deep inside. I knew that wasn’t true.
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Saba Hocek: And it wasn’t until I had an opportunity where I moved to a new school. And I said, you know what I am going to prove it to myself and prove all those teachers. My past wrong that I am capable and then and intelligent and I did.
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Jason Mefford: When you’re in pretty good company to because if I remember right, Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein were told the same thing.
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Jason Mefford: So,
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kathygruver: Yeah, that’s, that’s great. I love that you had the like the chutzpah to say I’m proving you wrong because I see so many people who, after getting that feedback for so long.
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kathygruver: Start to believe it themselves. And they don’t you know it’s the dog that even once the the leash is taken off. They just kind of stand there because they don’t realize they could walk away.
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kathygruver: So do you think that’s something that was just born in you as someone you developed over time that ability to go, no, I’m going to prove you wrong.
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Saba Hocek: I think that it’s in my nature and for one thing. I’m very much of a go getter and my parents you so he’s just saying that, you know, from the time that I could crawl.
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Saba Hocek: If I saw something. It didn’t matter what was in my way I crawl over the table of the chairs, but I was headed for whatever that was. So I think that is partially my character I but wasn’t enough in my character.
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Saba Hocek: To be a I wasn’t strong enough at the time when the teachers were saying you’re incompetent to fight against that. It was only when I felt in a sense that I was in a safe environment, my brothers had already graduated, I wasn’t being compared against somebody
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Saba Hocek: And I thought I had an you know this was my one chance and opportunity to prove
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Saba Hocek: Everybody wrong and myself right and they didn’t know enough about me.
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Saba Hocek: And they didn’t. The sad thing is that my transcripts for all BS because they passed me
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Saba Hocek: So they didn’t have that judgment to say, oh, well, you know, she’s not a good student. Now they figured I was good.
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Saba Hocek: Interest and and those people very often that I see and why I, I just love what I do.
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Saba Hocek: Because it’s my opportunity to prove everything that other people have told them wrong that the negative things obviously
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Saba Hocek: And, you know, to, to open their mind up to say no, you’ve got potential
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Jason Mefford: Well,
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Saba Hocek: I’m sorry. Good.
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Jason Mefford: Well, no, no. I was just gonna say because you know we’ve had a lot of hypnosis on here.
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Jason Mefford: You know, two out of three are hypnotist right but but i but i do actually, you know, two to three self hypnosis sessions a day.
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Jason Mefford: For myself, right, because again, it’s one of those things that
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Jason Mefford: I mean, it’s a huge thing. I know a lot of people might be freaked out about it, but it’s like I’m telling you that’s been like one of the best things
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Jason Mefford: That I’ve ever done in my life, right, because we have all these stories we have all these things that are going on.
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Jason Mefford: And we got to kind of break through that. Right. And like you said, all of us.
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Jason Mefford: Have a genius inside. So how can we unlock it. So, so maybe let’s let’s start talking about that because the, the term genius activator. I’m like who give me more. Give me more. Give me more.
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Jason Mefford: And then, and then also from the biofeedback standpoint, you know how you’re actually, you know, getting, not just in the conscious subconscious mind but actually down into the body and the Oregon area where, again, there’s a lot of energy that’s trapped
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Jason Mefford: Trauma other things like that that are trapped in the body, too, so how how you’re helping people kind of release release that and get through it.
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Saba Hocek: Sure, so first of all, the biggest obstacle with reaching your genius is all the negative noise in your mind.
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Saba Hocek: So,
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Saba Hocek: If I’m trying to find a solution.
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Saba Hocek: And I’m thinking, how am I going to solve this, but meanwhile the noise is sitting there saying, you’ll never be able to do this, you’re not smart enough, you’re not good enough. Oh my gosh, if you don’t find a solution. You’re gonna get fired.
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Saba Hocek: Who can have your thinking with that type of noise going on.
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Saba Hocek: So the first thing we need to do is to erase those limiting beliefs erase those negative thoughts.
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Saba Hocek: And once we do that, then we can start having clarity.
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Saba Hocek: And when we have the clarity, only when we have clarity is when the motivation comes
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Saba Hocek: So often I hear you know people come and say, you know, I want to be more motivated
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Saba Hocek: Well, how can you be more motivated. If you don’t know where you’re going.
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Saba Hocek: And once we have that motivation.
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Saba Hocek: Then we start moving forward.
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Saba Hocek: And when we move forward. We start loving ourselves because we feel proud of what we’re doing.
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Saba Hocek: So we have to have that self love
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Saba Hocek: And when you have this self love
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Saba Hocek: Then you start reaching into your energies, because you’re trusting yourself.
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Saba Hocek: So all you doing at that point.
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Saba Hocek: Is unlocking
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Saba Hocek: No often people think that
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Saba Hocek: They have to
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Saba Hocek: Bring in something for that genius.
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Saba Hocek: But it’s within us.
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Saba Hocek: And once we have unlocked our inner genius.
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Saba Hocek: Then we the creativity opens up
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Saba Hocek: Then the intuition opens up
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Saba Hocek: And then we have abundance
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kathygruver: I love it. I want to go back to something you said about quieting that noise.
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kathygruver: And how can you possibly make a clear decision. How can you move forward with all this noise.
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kathygruver: And how many times are we driving around and we’re looking for an address. And what do we do, we turn off the radio.
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kathygruver: Or, you know, we’re trying to parallel park and we’re like that and we turn off the shelf doing something right just having that BACKGROUND NOISE THIS ACTUALLY, BACKGROUND NOISE
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kathygruver: Is distracting enough and we have these shattered thoughts 60,000 a day. So yeah, you’re right. How do we shut all that out and get into that that genius mind.
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kathygruver: So that’s the million dollar question. How do we shut out those thoughts because I know mine I you know as the Vaseline intelligent person.
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kathygruver: My brain has something to tell me every three to five seconds. So, as does everybody who’s listening, you know. So how do we do that, how do we go and just turn that off so that we can come up with that genius.
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Saba Hocek: Well,
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Saba Hocek: First of all, we need to understand how the conscious and the unconscious mind works. So we have a conscious mind. And that’s one that we’re aware of.
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Saba Hocek: The one that is has turned on the podcast. That’s the conscious mind.
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Saba Hocek: It’s only a very small percentage of our brain.
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Saba Hocek: Don’t have the unconscious mind the unconscious mind is a, you know, I look at it always like a computer or computers like the brain.
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Saba Hocek: It’s a massive data bank of information.
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Saba Hocek: But on its own is unable to analyze
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Saba Hocek: Like a hard drive. It’s got or or a flash drive. I’m dating myself here.
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Saba Hocek: It’s it has no capability on its own.
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Saba Hocek: And that’s what your unconscious mind.
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Saba Hocek: It’s a very simple mind. The one thing is it always wants to protect us. It’s a very compassionate mind.
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Saba Hocek: Now you have a right and left side of the brain right sides emotional left side is logical.
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Saba Hocek: And the information comes and it goes from one side to the other, keeping things nice and balance.
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Saba Hocek: Between emotional empirical
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Saba Hocek: Well, my something and that dream, let’s say, a child is given a chocolate chip cookie momentary brain freeze. Oh my gosh, this is so incredibly delicious and mommy said I was good girl.
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Saba Hocek: Well, guess what.
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Saba Hocek: Every time that moment comes where you’re feeling like you know i i did really well at work today. I truly hard
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Saba Hocek: And I was recognized for that.
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Saba Hocek: I don’t know why I feel like a chocolate chip cookie right now.
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Saba Hocek: Yeah, because that’s how we’re the unconscious mind is saying, Go get yourself a chocolate chip cookie. You’re a good girl.
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Saba Hocek: Equally, if something negative has happened. It’s the same thing. It’s going to want to protect us.
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Saba Hocek: So the first thing we need to do is we balance that right now side of the brain.
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Saba Hocek: So to remove the noise. First we have to see what the noise. It’s everything is about awareness.
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Saba Hocek: And that noise can be positive or negative.
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Saba Hocek: So,
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Saba Hocek: For me,
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Saba Hocek: I am a very motivated person.
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Saba Hocek: Somewhere in my unconscious mind, thankfully.
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Saba Hocek: It has kept close tabs on those things that have pushed me
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Saba Hocek: And I will say that I wasn’t this motivated until I changed schools and I went through that and and believe me it wasn’t easy because
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Saba Hocek: You can imagine the gaps in my education for years of teachers saying, Don’t worry, honey. You don’t mean just pretend like you did the homework that’s good enough.
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Saba Hocek: So I had huge gaps and I literally when I changed schools, I would work nonstop 48 hours straight, literally taking spoonfuls of instant coffee to make it through the day.
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Saba Hocek: But I was determined to make it because I was just tired of being told I was incompetent.
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Saba Hocek: But the fact that I did it is what my unconscious mind said, See, I told you can do it. Yeah.
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Saba Hocek: Then I had the problem of needing to retrain myself that
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Saba Hocek: I don’t have to work so hard in order to prove it.
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Saba Hocek: Because that’s also what my unconscious mind learned
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Saba Hocek: So it’s that noise. We need to hear
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Saba Hocek: And then shape.
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Saba Hocek: And we’re working in a hypnotic state.
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Saba Hocek: The conscious mind is quieted so we can hear those unconscious thoughts.
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Saba Hocek: And it’s much more susceptible at that point to listen. So we can receive swell as gifts and that’s not estate is and you know i know you both know this, but for the listeners.
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Saba Hocek: It’s not like you’re clucking like a chicken or barking like a talk, we are in and out of hypnosis all day long. When you go to the movies you are hypnotized.
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Saba Hocek: Imagine you’re watching the movie. There are actors. We know they’re actors. We know the story is not real. We’re crying or laughing or terrorized. How is that possible. And why does that happen more so in the movie theater than when we watch that same movie at home.
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Saba Hocek: First of all, first leader was turned down the lights.
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Saba Hocek: As soon as the lights go down arm mind will say, oh, it’s time to go to sleep. So our conscious mind quiets down
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Saba Hocek: Then the screen is huge. The speakers are blasting. It’s a sensory overload and just like you were saying before, Kathy when there’s too much noise, what we do.
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Saba Hocek: Need quiet the conscious mind. I need to turn it down.
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Saba Hocek: So that I’m not. I’m not. So I’m disrupted. I will this notes.
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Saba Hocek: So the conscious mind quiets down even more, the unconscious mind is thinking what we’re watching is real and it’s making a connection to that huge data bank of information we’ve compare making connections with our own life.
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Saba Hocek: Our own experiences and now or crying or laughing, whatever that emotion, maybe
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kathygruver: I think people forget how powerful the subconscious mind is
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kathygruver: We don’t think we
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kathygruver: Say something that sounds silly. We don’t think about the subconscious mind you know we just go through life, and we make these decisions and we get ourselves into these circumstances. And then we get to the end and go
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kathygruver: Why does it turn out that way. Why do I keep doing that. Why do I. Well, it’s the subconscious that’s informing you know 88 plus percent of our decisions. That’s where it’s all coming from this is why someone calls us
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kathygruver: Says I want to quit smoking. Okay, well then quit. If you could just quit. That’s your conscious mind saying that it’s the subconscious mind that unconscious mind it’s keeping you as a smoker.
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kathygruver: So getting into that subconscious. I know we can do it through hypnosis with the genius activator. Is there a specific technique you use, is it just sort of the general hypnosis that we would see doing anything else. Is there a little trick, you’re using. How do you tap into that.
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Saba Hocek: It’s a number of different processes that I’m using. Part of it is in a sense a traditional
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Saba Hocek: Induction of getting into a hypnotic or relaxed state.
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Saba Hocek: With a genius activator, there’s
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Saba Hocek: Two for getting into the negative or limiting beliefs.
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Saba Hocek: We are taking a look first at some of those negative experiences.
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Saba Hocek: And what happens very often is
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Saba Hocek: If I asked at a conscious level for the person to tell me some of their experiences, they’re going to, let’s say, Come up with five life experiences that they had
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Saba Hocek: Under a hypnosis, they may come up with five but only two of those are the same as the one in the conscious mind.
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Saba Hocek: And like, that was really minor. I don’t know why I said that
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Saba Hocek: Well, it may be minor for you today.
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Saba Hocek: But when you were three years old.
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Saba Hocek: And your brother cut off a hair of your job.
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Saba Hocek: It was major
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Saba Hocek: And that’s what we need to go by.
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Saba Hocek: So I don’t like to stay
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Saba Hocek: Too much in the negative. So when we go through the negative to have that realization
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Saba Hocek: But then I like I’m all about empowering the person that’s why you know the the
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Saba Hocek: With my company we say live life empowered.
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Saba Hocek: It’s all about empowerment. So I like them to move on to the empowering end of it. What experiences.
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Saba Hocek: Have made you who you are.
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Saba Hocek: And again at a conscious level, the response is usually, you know, I don’t think there’s anything I’ve ever really done in like, no way.
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Saba Hocek: No way you’ve all done something
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Saba Hocek: And
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Saba Hocek: It may have seemed so natural at the time.
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Saba Hocek: That you dismissed it
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Saba Hocek: Or across happy that you made that achievement and then that became a natural state.
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Saba Hocek: But the first step.
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Saba Hocek: Is what’s really important
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Saba Hocek: That you took that first step.
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Saba Hocek: And that planted the seed for who you are today.
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Saba Hocek: And when we go through that.
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Saba Hocek: That and starts to clear away at all and negative negative bleeps. So, what we want is a positive to overpower
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Saba Hocek: It’s really strange with the human mind that we are more comfortable in the negative.
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Saba Hocek: In the pain than we are in the positive
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Saba Hocek: Because the pain protects us
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kathygruver: Jason has something brilliant to say
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Jason Mefford: Well, I was gonna say. I mean, that what you just said there is
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Jason Mefford: It’s kind of ironic, right, because again, for the most part we, you know, when you go back to the fight, flight, freeze kind of standpoint subconscious brain.
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Jason Mefford: You know, has for a long time has been protecting us and using fear, you know, or the fear flight, you know, kind of stuff to be able to help protect us.
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Jason Mefford: But, you know, as humans, it’s funny because we think we don’t like the pain. We don’t like the fear, but we spend so much of our life in the pain and the fear.
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Jason Mefford: Because we feel safer. And again, it’s like, you know, we, how could this even make any sense. But, but we. That’s why we tend to be there so much of the time. Because I think when we start tapping into that genius. It’s like, oh shit. I actually have to do something now.
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Jason Mefford: Mm hmm. Right, instead of, instead of just sitting there in your, you know, frozen state or you’re fearful state. It’s like, oh, you got to get off.
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Jason Mefford: You know, you got to get up and actually do something now create some sort of change, which again yeah for humans for animals. Everybody change is scary.
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Jason Mefford: And so yeah, even though to say it out loud right like fear is is more comfortable. Seems like it’s just not even true but it totally is.
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Saba Hocek: It going
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Saba Hocek: To your point,
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Saba Hocek: There is a part of me that new going back to when I was in school that it was more comfortable.
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Saba Hocek: In a way to be the incompetent.
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Saba Hocek: I left work.
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Saba Hocek: Yeah, I didn’t like the label.
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Saba Hocek: But there was a convenience to it.
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Saba Hocek: And they were giving me the carte blanche.
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Saba Hocek: Here you have a Pascoe, the know what is it
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Saba Hocek: Jail jail.
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Jason Mefford: Jail cards.
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kathygruver: Talk about games or
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kathygruver: Games. Games. Yeah.
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kathygruver: Yeah, no, it’s true. And it’s interesting because, to your point, Jason.
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kathygruver: Our brain is like you said so. But out to protect us. That’s what it does. It’s a caring brain it’s constantly scanning the environment for negative things to protect us. So in that way, we’re automatically looking for negative stuff.
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kathygruver: That’s how we’re wired and then our brain also is looking for things that are familiar to us. So if we’ve had a string of negative stuff.
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kathygruver: Our brain is more comfortable sitting in that negative stuff, it is safer to be in something that it knows, even if it’s scary dangerous mad, whatever.
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kathygruver: Then to step outside of that. That’s why so many women stay stuck in abusive relationships because to their brain being in that thing that’s familiar, even though it’s shit is safer for them than stepping outside of that.
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kathygruver: So stepping out you know quieting that subconscious starting to retrain ourselves. And it’s a
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kathygruver: It’s a long road, you don’t just suddenly start thinking, new thoughts you have to get yourself. You know, it’s like I’m gonna I’m gonna start running a marathon tomorrow.
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kathygruver: That’s stupid. And that doesn’t work, you have to train your brain. And I know so many that setting techniques that you use.
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kathygruver: As a hypnotherapist and with the biofeedback and with that so many of the phenomenal things that you do you’re helping us retrain our brain.
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kathygruver: How in your this is a not a trick question. It’s a hard one. How long does this take. I mean, like, when can we as the silly humans and these meat suits expect to start see changes in our lives. Is it something that can be instantaneous or is it a longer process.
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Saba Hocek: And first of all, we we don’t get to that point overnight of all those negative thoughts. So the, the fix is also not going to happen overnight.
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Saba Hocek: And for example, with the genius activator. If I have a first time client coming in who says, You know, I’m ready to work on myself. I want to do the genius activator, you’re not ready.
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Saba Hocek: Yeah, there’s
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Jason Mefford: No, I’m here. I want I want the help. Why am I not ready.
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Saba Hocek: It’s, you know, we need to build up to that when we get to the point of the genius activator, the negative beliefs that and limiting beliefs. I mentioned that will be. It’s the residuals. It’s what the bit that is still left over that we want to clear away.
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Saba Hocek: But if this person has
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Saba Hocek: Hey, if they went through the type of stuff. I went through of having moved to, you know, three different contents within a five year or six year period of my life from, you know, the age of 10 to
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Saba Hocek: 1819 lived in one to be nice 677 different countries.
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Saba Hocek: Each one different languages different schools.
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Saba Hocek: I’m not going for the genius activator right off the bat, I had way too much stuff to clear away.
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Saba Hocek: So,
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Saba Hocek: In answer to your question cafe, and most people that I say
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Saba Hocek: Who the average is usually around somewhere between five to eight sessions.
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Saba Hocek: To generally clear a way to to get to their goal. They usually come in with
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Saba Hocek: I, I want to have healthier relationships or I you know I’m lacking confidence in my work, that type of thing. That’s usually somewhere around five to eight sessions.
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Saba Hocek: I will sometimes see people for a much longer period of time. But generally, then what it is is that, oh, wow, this was fabulous. I want to work more on me.
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Saba Hocek: But somewhere after that five to eight sessions where they really go even though I may be working specifically on relationships. Let’s say healthier relationships that the help, though the unhealthy relationship is just a symptom.
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Saba Hocek: What is underneath the core of it is a lack of confidence, a lack of self worth. That’s what we’re really dealing with
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Saba Hocek: And that’s what we
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Saba Hocek: Otherwise, maybe they’ll have better relationships, but they’re not going to improve inner work.
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Saba Hocek: Pick up some
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Saba Hocek: I’m getting my connection is unstable. I hope you can hear me.
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Okay.
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Saba Hocek: And so the idea is to get to the core of it and resolve that.
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Saba Hocek: Once we have that pretty stable. It’s not like it’s done. And I always am giving clients new tools to use and exercises to do because I don’t have
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Saba Hocek: It.
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Saba Hocek: So,
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Saba Hocek: We really match Cortland is allow them to pull out to find their magic wand.
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Saba Hocek: And
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kathygruver: You would start to say, you give people tools and then you blurt a little bit. So just tell us that, again, to start, you give people tools. Is this like homework weekly kind of thing. Or how’s that
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Saba Hocek: Work, we can reset and they’ll have some type of homework, some type of a, you know, it could be something as simple as I need you to start journaling. If you’re not
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Saba Hocek: Um, I do handwriting analysis. Oh, teach them how to write
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Saba Hocek: So that it’s not just an affirmation that they’re writing or thoughts that you’re putting down, but also the way that they’re writing
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Saba Hocek: Because if our minds control the way we write
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Saba Hocek: And that
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Saba Hocek: Clarity, it shows immediately HAT WHAT rethinking then if we change the way we’re, we, right, we’re going to change the way we’re thinking not necessarily what we’re writing only, but how we’re writing it how performing those letters.
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Saba Hocek: So might be something like that. So I’ll give them the tools will give them the exercises.
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Saba Hocek: A magic wand is in them.
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Saba Hocek: Those tools will help them find their magical moment.
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Saba Hocek: And once they’ve gotten to the point that they’ve sort of gotten to the core of that issue and strengthening their self course their confidence. Now we’re ready for the cheese had to be here.
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kathygruver: I love it, I love it. And of course, guess what, Jason.
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I’m
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kathygruver: We’ve run out of time as we do. Well, we’ll just have to leave people hanging with that, and they’ll have to start working with you and get into the genius activator.
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kathygruver: This has been so great. I love this. I love this technique that you’re talking about, you know, I mean, I’m a hypnotherapist we’ve talked to countless hypnotherapist
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kathygruver: And this is just so exciting because it’s true, it gets to the root. It’s the root cause thing.
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kathygruver: You know, it’s like you don’t treat the headache what’s causing the headache. Let’s get to the root cause shut out that noise.
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kathygruver: And remembering how powerful our subconscious is and that we do have control over it. I love handwriting analysis. I completely agree with you, changing the writing can change your into your subconscious. So Jason, any final thoughts.
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Jason Mefford: Well yeah, I was gonna actually go there on the handwriting, a little bit because you know one thing that I’ve been that I’ve been taught that I
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Jason Mefford: I try to be more conscious of is the words we use and how we say things gives us a little insight into what our subconscious is really thinking right
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Jason Mefford: But never even thought about it from a handwriting analysis standpoint that even the way that we’re forming the letters and
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Jason Mefford: The other stuff when we’re writing, whether we’re speaking or writing. It’s not just the words, but the form in which we’re doing it. Probably the energy with which we’re actually saying the words as well.
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Jason Mefford: To help us start kind of understanding, you know, but but love the idea that, you know, again, regardless of who we are. We’ve experienced different things in our life that we’ve got to kind of clear out
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Jason Mefford: And once we clear out some of those things, then we can start, you know, digging deeper into some of these genius things
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Jason Mefford: And really unlocking potential, but it’s it’s hard. You know, it’s but it’s like that old analogy of carrying a backpack with a bunch of rocks.
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Jason Mefford: Until you start getting rid of some of the rocks. It’s going to make the journey pretty difficult. And that’s what you’re doing, you’re helping people clear that stuff house. So then they can start fresh on now training yourself differently going forward to be successful so fabulous stuff.
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kathygruver: And then love space as you take those rocks out of the backpack. You can fill it with beautiful things like flowers and wine.
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kathygruver: Because it’s all about flowers in one
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kathygruver: So yeah, absolutely. Oh, sorry. This has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much. Hello, everybody. Hello.
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kathygruver: Oh, of course. How can everybody reach you, if they want to get in touch.
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Saba Hocek: As self empowered minds.com
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kathygruver: Beautiful. It’s right in the background there. Perfect.
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kathygruver: This has been amazing. Thank you so, so much for coming. I’m Kathy gruver I can be reached a Kathy group com
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Jason Mefford: I’m Jason method I can be reached at Jason method calm. So have a great rest of your week and we will catch you on the next episode of the fire and earth podcast. See, yeah.
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Saba Hocek: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you both. And thank you, listeners.
