A lot of people are advocating auditing culture. Problem is, it’s very swishy and difficult to objectively audit. A much more practical approach is to utilize some newer research around Personality System Interaction (PSI) patterns and utilize the Organizational Personality Framework which provides new, innovative levers for change, based on analyzing the organization’s preferred personality system interaction patterns.

In this #jammingwithjason #internalauditpodcast I am joined by Barbara Siegenthaler, a pioneer in a systemic approach that combines business expertise and PSI theory into a 360° degree testing and thinking grid for human factors – across the organization. She is the founder of The Organizational Personality Framework and the Personality-based Internal Auditing PBA® methodology.

Both approaches leverage the explanatory and predictive value of the Theory of Personality Systems Interactions. PSI Theory is a meta model from the domain of personality and motivation psychology, considered by academic psychology in Germany as “groundbreaking” and “highly innovative”.

​This is an episode when I had the opportunity to geek out with Barbara and show how we can improve what we do as #internalaudit when we apply principles from other disciplines into how we audit.

Learn more about Barbara and these principles at: https://www.personality-based-audit.com/ and https://www.savanteon.com/


00:00:02.159 –> 00:00:11.820
Jason Mefford: Well, Welcome everybody to another episode of jamming with Jason. Hey, I have got a fabulous guest on with me today. Barbara Seguin tada

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Jason Mefford: Actually in from Switzerland. I remember I you actually live in Switzerland. Right.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Yes, I live in Zurich, Switzerland. Yes, thanks.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, it’s

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Jason Mefford: It’s a, it’s a rough place to live, you know, Switzerland is actually one of my favorite places I love, I love that place, but

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Jason Mefford: We’re going to talk about something interesting today that again, maybe a little groundbreaking for some of you, we might say some things that piss, a few of you off. That’s okay. That’s what we’re. That’s what we’re here for, but also to give you some encouragement.

00:00:45.900 –> 00:00:59.640
Jason Mefford: On how we really need to change from an internal audit perspective, if we really are serious about wanting to be more future oriented and changing with the times, because the reality is, folks.

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Jason Mefford: Most of you are doing the same kind of stuff that’s been done for 100 years and that’s not how organizations operate anymore so

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Jason Mefford: Barbara, let me bring you on maybe you know explain just a little bit about what you

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Jason Mefford: Do because you add a different perspective. You know, I thought I was the only crazy one talking about psychology and internal audit.

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Jason Mefford: But this is your lane as well. So maybe kind of explain to people a little bit about what you do and how you’re trying to help organizations and in turn, a lot of groups.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Okay, so thank you very much. So some some words about my background I’m Swiss grew up in burns the capitals and move to search for work. I’m coming from a family of lawyers. So I did law school first and eventually

00:01:46.020 –> 00:01:59.280
Barbara Siegenthaler: Maybe not the right thing for me. I love the concise language, the logic in legal work. I also have the admission to practice as an Attorney at Law, but eventually I went to Syria and joined a large insurance company.

00:02:00.540 –> 00:02:09.030
Barbara Siegenthaler: Where I was first in in house consulting and I entered global European and global projects. And then I went to outsourcing.

00:02:10.170 –> 00:02:28.500
Barbara Siegenthaler: And where I established a governance model and behold behalf of my organization for global outsourcing contract and all did and risk as well as legal food. It was kind of a best practice approach globally and generous. They asked me if I wanted to try and cope with it.

00:02:29.190 –> 00:02:31.620
Barbara Siegenthaler: I my thought was, oh my goodness, no.

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Jason Mefford: Why would I want to go to internal audit right

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Barbara Siegenthaler: No, I just had one touch point at this time was internal audit. It was actually an external resource, but yet the reputation of, you know, coming, coming to our, our office is always at the wrong time asking strange questions.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Totally disruptive in a negative way. And eventually we got to be for these findings we already knew.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: But so I thought, okay, let’s give it a go and

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Jason Mefford: So, so it’s not not to interrupt, but let me just kind of stop here because this is

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Jason Mefford: You know, I’ve, I’ve done things outside of audit as well. And as you described your career path, right, you did a lot of other things before you came to audit.

00:03:17.400 –> 00:03:24.300
Jason Mefford: But everybody that’s listening. I want you to listen to what Barbara just said about how she viewed that internal auditor right

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Jason Mefford: Because that’s how most of the people are viewing is right, showing up at times that are inconvenient asking us weird questions, taking a bunch of our time and then lobbying or report to us at the end, I kind of got that right. Didn’t I that’s kind of what

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Barbara Siegenthaler: It was an external resource that has

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Barbara Siegenthaler: The department at this time. So,

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Okay, like I said, it’s got really fantastic offer to join Google bought it at this time. And it sounds like a fairy tale. So I said, let’s give it a go.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: And I loved it. I really, really love to professional. I think it’s the most in most underestimated professions. It’s for people who love logical thinking

00:04:09.990 –> 00:04:21.720
Barbara Siegenthaler: Who always want to want to have a new challenge. It’s beautiful. So I kind of fell in love with internal audit and stayed with the Department for six years until 2015 okay

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Jason Mefford: So now once you left that because, because again, kind of, so explain now kind of what you’re doing and how all of this kind of comes about because you you are bringing kind of the psychology side into

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Jason Mefford: What you’re doing now. Right. And I know before we started hitting record. We’re talking about how auditors are usually very binary in our thinking are black and white zero white or you know 01 right

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Jason Mefford: And and there’s not a lot of gray area, but the reality is, I mean, the older I’ve gotten

00:04:54.930 –> 00:05:05.430
Jason Mefford: There is no black and white. There’s just Shades of Grey. There’s no right or wrong, there are, you know, varying perspectives and circumstances and

00:05:06.720 –> 00:05:18.270
Jason Mefford: Ways that people think because of how they’re conditioned none are necessarily right or wrong. So, you know, let’s jump into the gray hair a little bit

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Just, just be pre curling that I just gave a speech to to the Swiss internal auditors, whereas the key message was actually coming from the definition of internal auditor to unlocking objective assurance and consulting services.

00:05:35.730 –> 00:05:41.310
Barbara Siegenthaler: But that’s this is highly subjective highly subjective, so I’m

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Barbara Siegenthaler: Very quickly, going back to 2015

00:05:43.950 –> 00:06:00.240
Barbara Siegenthaler: So I left Grupo that I would, I was at a time in my life where I was intellectually bought. I was looking for a new challenge didn’t know what to do. And since it was a coincident I was reading an article in a newspaper an article about

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Barbara Siegenthaler: upcycling psychological meta theories that sounded so interesting that I booked the first training course. It was a three day training course. And then I was surrounded back in 2015

00:06:12.180 –> 00:06:28.080
Barbara Siegenthaler: Surrounded by shrinks by psychologists by professional coaches in this training course and started digging into personality psychology and this was so interesting for me. So I said, it’s kind of a sabbatical for me. So I’m like,

00:06:29.940 –> 00:06:40.470
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, let’s let’s learn more about it and eventually I came to a point rather sooner sunlight to wear said, Hey, hold on a minute. So, what, what does this mean

00:06:41.130 –> 00:06:49.380
Barbara Siegenthaler: What does this mean in the context of internal mood and then I took it from there. So I started at some point I said I want to be an expert in this model.

00:06:49.920 –> 00:07:05.460
Barbara Siegenthaler: That’s how I would like to work. That’s what I would like to do in life and basically crafted myself a job profile. It was developing a new model and your approach of how to look organizations organizations using this method theory.

00:07:06.510 –> 00:07:27.870
Barbara Siegenthaler: Um, and also got in contact with the professor who’s research and using. So this was in 2017 and he thought it’s absolutely realistic with them. Do I came out to send meeting having him as collaboration partner. Yeah, maybe a few words about some model if this if this is helpful.

00:07:27.900 –> 00:07:33.210
Jason Mefford: Yeah yeah cuz you’ve you’ve kind of created this is the organizational personality framework.

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Barbara Siegenthaler: That you’re

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Jason Mefford: Kind of developing right

00:07:36.570 –> 00:07:51.720
Barbara Siegenthaler: So it’s a model from academic psychology based on more than 30 years of academic research. It has an extra also reputational it said to be groundbreaking unique and highly innovative and series even

00:07:54.360 –> 00:08:12.000
Barbara Siegenthaler: The term Psychological Society even said that psychology has virtually no comparable theoretical frameworks or dynamics theories. So what does it say does it say it’s a model that looks at personality from the perspective of personality systems.

00:08:13.320 –> 00:08:24.780
Barbara Siegenthaler: So it says as a focus Rs. The interconnectivity. These are the interconnection patterns between this personality systems sets are characteristic for human personality.

00:08:25.830 –> 00:08:29.790
Barbara Siegenthaler: And then I said, Okay, this all sounds good. So what about two people.

00:08:31.830 –> 00:08:43.620
Barbara Siegenthaler: Could the challenges, for example, that a couple have all could also be caused by these personalities instances and connectivity patterns and eventually said, Okay, what about the group.

00:08:44.610 –> 00:08:51.510
Barbara Siegenthaler: concern is that, what about the department. What about in organizations and then I decided that I would like to learn this model.

00:08:53.220 –> 00:09:09.390
Barbara Siegenthaler: Become an expert in some model and also in the personalities cancer diagnostics that goes along with it said I can reverse engineer is a process. I don’t, I can identify the patterns at an organizational level.

00:09:10.770 –> 00:09:12.780
Barbara Siegenthaler: And that’s what I started doing

00:09:13.500 –> 00:09:30.570
Jason Mefford: Well, and so, you know, because a lot of people that don’t have a psychological background may not be that familiar with personalities, this, this whole term right there’s there’s some different tests that are out there like Myers Briggs desk. I know you give it a big thumbs down. Right.

00:09:30.930 –> 00:09:35.100
Jason Mefford: Those are, those are in, and they all all of those kind of things have

00:09:35.190 –> 00:09:37.140
Jason Mefford: Have some of their challenges.

00:09:38.970 –> 00:09:52.890
Jason Mefford: Right, because any way they have their challenges but but the idea behind them is right. If you’re a certain Myers Briggs personality type, like I’m an iron TJ right

00:09:53.340 –> 00:10:06.840
Jason Mefford: Is now by understanding more of kind of what my personality is I understand better how to interact with myself right what my personal motivations are

00:10:07.350 –> 00:10:23.430
Jason Mefford: How I choose to or prefer to work with other people. But then as I start to understand other people’s personality types. Now I can adapt myself to be more successful at working with them.

00:10:23.940 –> 00:10:34.140
Jason Mefford: Right. I mean, kind of, kind of at a high level, in my you’re more the expert on this, but I’m trying to kind of make it so that the people that are listening without

00:10:34.590 –> 00:10:48.150
Jason Mefford: A big background kind of understand what we’re meeting by personality types and then how we can kind of relate that to organizations as well because I think people forget organizations have personalities. Just like people do.

00:10:48.990 –> 00:11:02.670
Barbara Siegenthaler: And we forget. Exactly. And that’s, that’s where I’m coming from and what we can use from the model and the name of the model is the theory of personality systems interaction. So, psi care.

00:11:03.750 –> 00:11:13.800
Barbara Siegenthaler: And what we can use from psi care or the motifs its power achievement affiliation and freedom and we can use

00:11:15.210 –> 00:11:24.960
Barbara Siegenthaler: For fundamentally different ways how humans process informations. And if you combine this motives and the information processes will already end up with 50

00:11:27.150 –> 00:11:39.990
Barbara Siegenthaler: interaction patterns between personality systems. And so it all comes down to what do we see, and you can apply to this actually to the entire work of internal auditors starting from, who are you hiring.

00:11:41.850 –> 00:11:51.480
Barbara Siegenthaler: What risks and I addressing what kind of risks are these and what kind of finding, do I have, what’s the strategy of the organization.

00:11:52.620 –> 00:11:53.940
Barbara Siegenthaler: And how do I

00:11:54.960 –> 00:12:10.320
Barbara Siegenthaler: How do I talk about the results customizing the audit insights to the audience. So it’s basically am playing around playing around with this and I have a nice or is it

00:12:15.960 –> 00:12:24.270
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, I have a nice definition of a farmer. Cool. It is basically the focus of my work is the complex interplay between content.

00:12:24.630 –> 00:12:42.360
Barbara Siegenthaler: Activation level and system connections of personality systems at the individual auditor engagement functional and organizational levels. So it’s all together. And of course, you must you really must know what you’re doing. I’m its personality psychology and

00:12:44.160 –> 00:12:55.230
Barbara Siegenthaler: Where I was wrong. I thought I would study the model. And since start working. I never expected it to take a after five years really to be able to play around with it so

00:12:58.020 –> 00:13:04.110
Jason Mefford: Yeah, it’s, it’s, I mean this is I’ve done the same thing with developing different frameworks or models over time.

00:13:04.770 –> 00:13:11.910
Jason Mefford: And it takes it takes a lot of time because what you’re doing is you’re looking outside of your particular area.

00:13:12.570 –> 00:13:18.570
Jason Mefford: Right, and then trying to it takes it takes time. First off, to get the knowledge and the skills associated with that.

00:13:19.020 –> 00:13:26.070
Jason Mefford: Then you’ve got to assimilate it and kind of create abilities or ways of thinking and applying it back to yourself.

00:13:26.640 –> 00:13:32.310
Jason Mefford: And then you actually have to work through it a few times to make sure that it actually works and it does take years. Right, so

00:13:32.820 –> 00:13:44.040
Jason Mefford: So, so I I totally understand. It’s like, you know, I’ve got some little pretty pictures that I’ve developed and it’s like, it looks nice, but you would. You’d be surprised how many years or time goes into it.

00:13:44.790 –> 00:13:53.010
Barbara Siegenthaler: You know, I once heard the quotes that. Do you know someone said, I’m writing. I think it was Oscar Wilde I’m writing your lovely letter because I don’t have time.

00:13:54.090 –> 00:13:55.530
Jason Mefford: Because I don’t have time to read a short when

00:13:55.530 –> 00:13:58.110
Barbara Siegenthaler: It goes, I don’t have time to write it and yeah

00:13:59.730 –> 00:14:06.900
Barbara Siegenthaler: So, um, yeah, no, it really took a lot of time but it works. Also, when I started my first clients.

00:14:07.380 –> 00:14:24.060
Barbara Siegenthaler: It absolutely does. What I envisaged it to do back in 2015 it works perfectly. It gives a lot of new insights and it is very, very fast because I’m working on the background of systems theory I can leverage. Plus, it is extremely elegant

00:14:25.290 –> 00:14:38.130
Barbara Siegenthaler: Important is so it’s still a model. So we’re not talking about the one and only truth and it’s a model, you must know what it can do what it comes so I’m adding additional models and additional

00:14:40.620 –> 00:14:45.030
Barbara Siegenthaler: Knowledge to my to do my work, for example, HIPAA systemic so

00:14:46.200 –> 00:14:57.000
Barbara Siegenthaler: I’m Milton Erickson approach. Yeah, so I’m adding this as well. So I think at some point gets a an individual combination or from

00:14:58.920 –> 00:14:59.760
Barbara Siegenthaler: The work you’re doing.

00:15:00.330 –> 00:15:08.010
Jason Mefford: Well, and this is some of this stuff again. I mean, you talked about different levels, you know, kind of at the individual level, maybe a team level.

00:15:08.400 –> 00:15:22.380
Jason Mefford: You know department organization, there’s there’s different levels where these interactions actually happen. Right. And so what I thought would be interesting is, is maybe let’s go back and just talk about internal audit or internal auditors in general.

00:15:23.400 –> 00:15:30.960
Jason Mefford: BECAUSE I CAN’T MEMBER we mentioned this since we’ve recorded or if it was in the pre talk, but some of the some of the things that came up that I figured we should make sure

00:15:31.680 –> 00:15:43.860
Jason Mefford: And talk about in the end. The first one you just made a, you know, you made a reference little while ago to in the definition of internal auditing. We are an independent and objective assurance and consulting function. Okay.

00:15:44.670 –> 00:15:52.440
Jason Mefford: And again, those, those few words took took committees like 10 or 20 years to argue about what words to put in there.

00:15:53.190 –> 00:16:03.390
Jason Mefford: But a word that we like to use all the time is objective we like to believe that we are objective, but at the core. We’re humans, right.

00:16:04.230 –> 00:16:17.250
Jason Mefford: And because we’re humans can we ever truly be objective and the answer is no because of all of these things that kind of come into our personality. Right. It’s our motives. It’s the

00:16:17.250 –> 00:16:19.650
Jason Mefford: Way that we want to process things right.

00:16:20.940 –> 00:16:29.160
Jason Mefford: So maybe let’s let’s talk about that a little bit, because this is one of those, you know, folks. I told you. Sometimes I’m going to reach reach through and shake you a little bit

00:16:29.730 –> 00:16:39.780
Jason Mefford: And I think this is one of those things, you’re not as objective as you think you are. There’s a lot of subconscious biases that you’re that you’re doing that, you’re living through

00:16:41.160 –> 00:16:48.180
Jason Mefford: In. So, you know, but now that we know that now we can start to try to look at it and peel these things back

00:16:49.890 –> 00:16:55.140
Jason Mefford: To. So let’s talk about that. Maybe a little bit. And some of this stuff because I know you said you were you just gave a speech on that right

00:16:55.170 –> 00:16:56.400
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, subjective.

00:16:57.060 –> 00:17:13.890
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, maybe I have different ways how look at the topic of objectivity. I can give you a little it’s different for different cycles. I can give you. So the first one is if we differentiate between living systems and best systems.

00:17:15.210 –> 00:17:17.250
Jason Mefford: Because what do you mean by that living living versus

00:17:17.550 –> 00:17:20.910
Barbara Siegenthaler: Like a machine a dead system like that. No, a machine o’clock.

00:17:21.030 –> 00:17:23.730
Barbara Siegenthaler: Or a train engine, you know,

00:17:23.850 –> 00:17:28.830
Barbara Siegenthaler: Okay, but maybe hundred years ago, you know, without turning so

00:17:29.040 –> 00:17:31.740
Jason Mefford: No trains and trains and Switzerland very until

00:17:33.390 –> 00:17:43.710
Barbara Siegenthaler: They are. Yes. No. But the point is, as soon as you have a human involved. It’s a living system. It’s a living systems are we’re talking about complexity.

00:17:45.270 –> 00:17:53.310
Barbara Siegenthaler: And we talked about the different variables that are interconnected and say that influence each other so you don’t get anywhere with binary sinking.

00:17:54.390 –> 00:18:08.250
Barbara Siegenthaler: This will be a first first point, if I take it from psi care. I would say if an auditor has as a look at a topic. He brings his knowledge and he brings his experience.

00:18:08.880 –> 00:18:22.650
Barbara Siegenthaler: To the, to the project and he brings his thinking and behavior patterns so he can’t really do do some magic. At some point, what he will see we’ll be a reflection of what he knows and how he says he or she thinks

00:18:23.880 –> 00:18:33.510
Barbara Siegenthaler: I can also take it from that from happening. Systemic person a prospective saying and reality doesn’t exist perceived reality is a construct

00:18:33.780 –> 00:18:34.170
It is

00:18:35.220 –> 00:18:38.310
Barbara Siegenthaler: It doesn’t mean it’s a result of attention.

00:18:41.820 –> 00:18:49.080
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah. And then if we if we can also take it from an information processing and perspective, saying,

00:18:50.160 –> 00:18:54.300
Barbara Siegenthaler: Humans have different ways how they process information and

00:18:56.160 –> 00:19:06.630
Barbara Siegenthaler: The analytical ones. It’s just two out of the four ways. And it’s kind of a control, illusion, because all that second process is one or two moments of consciousness.

00:19:08.820 –> 00:19:22.440
Barbara Siegenthaler: So from whichever angle. I take it from my professional and expert expertise and experiments have to say, I don’t think we are objective and we should be fair enough to say that’s what, that’s this is the case.

00:19:23.790 –> 00:19:37.710
Jason Mefford: Well, because we come with, you know, like you said, all of our all of our learning all of our context, you know. And again, this is going to be, it’s a it’s a little mind blowing. For some people that haven’t really research or thought about this, but there is

00:19:38.970 –> 00:19:57.270
Jason Mefford: No specific reality, other than the reality that we see. And so, you almost have to think about it like you’re walking around holding up a mirror and we view the world the way we view it because of our personality because of our experiences because of the conditioning.

00:19:58.290 –> 00:20:00.870
Jason Mefford: You know that that that we have come up with. Right.

00:20:01.230 –> 00:20:06.330
Jason Mefford: And we won’t get too esoteric or we’re going to lose everybody on this. If we start really philosophizing even though I’d like

00:20:06.360 –> 00:20:06.630

00:20:07.770 –> 00:20:08.250
Jason Mefford: But

00:20:09.780 –> 00:20:12.780
Jason Mefford: It wouldn’t I would be tempting, you know, we’ll just go on the

00:20:13.230 –> 00:20:21.300
Jason Mefford: hour to hour, and I’ll go put my thinking cap on, literally, I have a British thinking cap. I’ll get into that at a different time. The story behind that, but

00:20:22.320 –> 00:20:33.390
Jason Mefford: So, so let’s think about, because again, like you said, we, we are not as objective as we think we are, because we bring all of these things and our, our subjectivity comes into this

00:20:33.930 –> 00:20:44.700
Jason Mefford: And this is one of those areas where most auditors have a bias for certain types of risk and we are fearful in our nature.

00:20:45.270 –> 00:21:02.340
Jason Mefford: We don’t want bad things to happen. We’re trying to not have bad things happen. But we focus on certain risks that we believe are important and we exclude everything else. And again, this is

00:21:03.540 –> 00:21:07.020
Jason Mefford: I’ve got lots of stories behind this, but I kind of want to hear your take on

00:21:07.080 –> 00:21:13.470
Barbara Siegenthaler: On this because using psi see every one of the for information processing.

00:21:14.520 –> 00:21:29.220
Barbara Siegenthaler: The ways how humans process information is analytical it’s part of elementary cognition and it is on the experiential access and it has a characteristic of looking exactly at one item.

00:21:30.060 –> 00:21:41.820
Barbara Siegenthaler: It’s a discrepancy focus. It’s a focus on mistakes is focus on on such a part of the patterns that doesn’t set doesn’t fit in. And I think internal auditors are

00:21:43.980 –> 00:21:53.370
Barbara Siegenthaler: Probably pretty strong in this in this type of processing processing information. And I think what can be typical for an internal auditor.

00:21:54.840 –> 00:22:06.900
Barbara Siegenthaler: who’s new to the professional that he or she does deal with it. And then they end up with a huge number of individual insights and they can’t get a picture out of it.

00:22:09.060 –> 00:22:14.370
Barbara Siegenthaler: And that’s exactly the thinking this thinking way. So it’s, it’s beautiful, it’s like a like.

00:22:15.990 –> 00:22:22.200
Barbara Siegenthaler: It’s a beautiful way to think, but it’s just one out of four ways to process information and what what

00:22:23.670 –> 00:22:36.510
Barbara Siegenthaler: Every individual who’s strong in this information processing way should be able to do is to to distinguish between, you know, dig go very deep and look at at one detail and said, go and have a look at the whole again.

00:22:37.620 –> 00:22:53.610
Barbara Siegenthaler: So it’s a it’s a mother say it’s moving between these two ways of processing information. So I think at some point it’s really ingrained in in internal auditor is to have to be fearful and to be outrageous and then on the other hand, on the other side you have

00:22:55.410 –> 00:23:00.690
Barbara Siegenthaler: You have all the teasers think what kind of crazy bureaucratic insights are they giving us know

00:23:03.240 –> 00:23:09.480
Jason Mefford: Well, and I see this show up. So here, here’s just kind of a real life example of that, right, because again, kind of our biases.

00:23:09.990 –> 00:23:19.380
Jason Mefford: Having us focus in on one particular thing auditors love fraud anything related to fraud. They just get all excited about. Right.

00:23:20.340 –> 00:23:33.210
Jason Mefford: But again, and so, but if you if you were the lens of. There’s a lot of fraud happening in my organization, all you’re going to be looking for is fraud at that very narrow level.

00:23:33.930 –> 00:23:46.350
Jason Mefford: When you step back and look at it at the bigger picture. The reality is less than 5% and it’s probably only 1% of the people in your organization are actually committing any kind of fraud.

00:23:46.980 –> 00:23:54.330
Jason Mefford: 95 to 99% of the people are just trying to do the best they can with what they have. Right.

00:23:54.960 –> 00:24:03.870
Jason Mefford: But again, if we get so focused on that fear or just on certain risks, then that’s all we’re going to focus on

00:24:04.350 –> 00:24:15.810
Jason Mefford: And we’re going to have these blind spots and and and just totally not even see other things, is we’re, we’re so close to just looking at the tree we forget that we’re in the forest.

00:24:16.950 –> 00:24:33.300
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah, that’s a good. That’s a good examples is proverb, you know, you can’t see the forest anymore because of the trees, looking at a tree is the information processing that focuses on one on one item and the forest is the whole the whole

00:24:33.990 –> 00:24:51.120
Barbara Siegenthaler: And so we call the emotional dialectic is moving from one to the other information processing processing system. I’d like to bring another element into it. If we look at the future, for example, we take the World Economic Forum’s global competitive and Erasmus less report.

00:24:52.230 –> 00:25:09.600
Barbara Siegenthaler: And they talk about disruptive technologies they talk about novel value creation and say, see that’s the factors that will grow and significance, our human capital agility resilience and innovation.

00:25:10.860 –> 00:25:14.760
Barbara Siegenthaler: And the question is what can auditors bring to the table.

00:25:16.950 –> 00:25:27.210
Barbara Siegenthaler: They provide assurance regarding these topics and that early assurance. It’s about embracing foresight to they have a predictive element.

00:25:28.140 –> 00:25:45.990
Barbara Siegenthaler: And what’s interesting, you know, last year, the internal audit services of the European Commission, say you have a conference and annual conference and the name was from hints from hindsight to insights and by young how internal audit may contribute to for side.

00:25:46.920 –> 00:25:48.630
Barbara Siegenthaler: So the topic is basically

00:25:49.560 –> 00:25:51.300
Barbara Siegenthaler: Saying know something has to be done.

00:25:53.010 –> 00:25:55.710
Jason Mefford: Well, it’s and it’s funny because I you know I it’s

00:25:58.290 –> 00:26:03.930
Jason Mefford: It’s that’s that’s a big conundrum. For most of us, to, to kind of get through because

00:26:04.950 –> 00:26:14.490
Jason Mefford: You know, again, as we’re talking about personalities like within audit groups, right, if you look at most internal audit departments, they’re fairly homogenous.

00:26:15.090 –> 00:26:27.510
Jason Mefford: And the personality types, they choose to hire right and and a lot of those are kind of historical again because we focus so much on the hindsight, right, we’re looking backwards.

00:26:27.750 –> 00:26:28.410
Jason Mefford: All the time.

00:26:29.160 –> 00:26:46.920
Jason Mefford: And we get people that are very check the box compliant binary thinking of was it right or was it wrong in the past, but to turn around and try to have foresight or insight about the future requires a totally different skill set.

00:26:48.840 –> 00:26:51.660
Jason Mefford: That honestly auditors have not been taught

00:26:52.470 –> 00:27:06.570
Jason Mefford: Because even if we go back to something as simple as risk management and i know i probably piss people off when I say things like this but internal audit does not understand risk and risk management as well as they think they do.

00:27:07.650 –> 00:27:26.130
Jason Mefford: Because the way that the lands that internal audit thinks about risk is very narrow in its focus back to our discussion before and it’s very low level in the organization, we’re not spending much time talking about or thinking about

00:27:27.150 –> 00:27:29.010
Jason Mefford: strategic level risks.

00:27:30.210 –> 00:27:32.130
Jason Mefford: Which are more about the things in the future.

00:27:32.520 –> 00:27:37.860
Jason Mefford: We’re worried more about the system or the process breaking instead of things like

00:27:38.220 –> 00:27:46.170
Jason Mefford: Innovation and how, how can we be innovative in the future as an organization that’s totally different.

00:27:46.260 –> 00:27:58.380
Barbara Siegenthaler: Way of looking and strategic risk for me is basically will. It’s kind of a prediction. What can we do to help the organization survive. I mean, times will be tough.

00:27:58.800 –> 00:28:07.860
Barbara Siegenthaler: And I think that a traditional auditors’ that maybe does business audience is kind of going to disappear. It will be all around it and around psychology

00:28:09.300 –> 00:28:12.900
Barbara Siegenthaler: This will be my my my my gut feel how the profession should

00:28:12.990 –> 00:28:17.040
Barbara Siegenthaler: Shouldn’t it should evolve and if I if I bring my work in. I mean,

00:28:18.630 –> 00:28:31.530
Barbara Siegenthaler: I would like to see mature organizational personality and the mature organization personality and can recruit personality systems that are best suited for the task.

00:28:32.040 –> 00:28:36.960
Barbara Siegenthaler: So I would like to see internal auditor. If the work with some model lines have been developing

00:28:37.530 –> 00:28:44.850
Barbara Siegenthaler: And give it given assurance, like what ours is thinking and behavior preferences of the organization right now. What are the pros and

00:28:45.150 –> 00:28:51.660
Barbara Siegenthaler: The cons. Is it fit for purpose. What’s the, what’s the organizations doing if it’s one sided then

00:28:52.230 –> 00:28:58.920
Barbara Siegenthaler: The drawbacks of the patterns that are in place currently are risks that could be metric could materialize.

00:28:59.790 –> 00:29:14.250
Barbara Siegenthaler: And I think the biggest the biggest advantage of of the my work is really set this organizational personality framework. It’s like a 360 degree thinking and revelation. Great for human factors across the organization.

00:29:14.730 –> 00:29:25.620
Barbara Siegenthaler: So from strategy culture innovation. Change Program recruiting leadership governance assurance. You can use it and you can you get insights that you can compare

00:29:26.100 –> 00:29:34.650
Barbara Siegenthaler: Is it’s a one and only truth. Of course not. It’s a good. It’s a pair of glasses, you can look down and saying, you know, okay, now I’m having a look at

00:29:36.090 –> 00:29:41.490
Barbara Siegenthaler: The odd dairy or the organization from the perspective of the organizational organizations. The

00:29:42.210 –> 00:29:56.760
Barbara Siegenthaler: Organizational personality framework and then you have other other methodologies and frameworks in place. Have you seen Jason. Have you seen the latest the April edition of the Harvard Business Review

00:29:58.020 –> 00:29:59.580
Jason Mefford: Not actually read that one. Yeah.

00:30:00.060 –> 00:30:00.360
Barbara Siegenthaler: I think

00:30:00.420 –> 00:30:02.790
Barbara Siegenthaler: April. Yes. April.

00:30:03.450 –> 00:30:13.470
Barbara Siegenthaler: Okay, there’s an article in there it says how banks are using behavioral science to prevent scandals.

00:30:14.880 –> 00:30:27.540
Barbara Siegenthaler: It’s an insight from the behavioral risk teens that some Dutch and UK companies I’ve been playing. So it’s the img ABN AMRO and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

00:30:28.230 –> 00:30:33.360
Barbara Siegenthaler: They have small teams organizational psychology, anthropology forensics maltings

00:30:33.990 –> 00:30:38.820
Barbara Siegenthaler: And they start looking at these topics as well. So I think there are, yeah.

00:30:39.990 –> 00:30:42.300
Barbara Siegenthaler: Professions kind of evolving a little bit fair

00:30:42.300 –> 00:30:53.550
Jason Mefford: Yes, well, and it’s funny because, you know, again, as you mentioned, the World Economic Forum kind of the future, those, those words that you put out there like, you know, innovation and some of these other words

00:30:54.270 –> 00:31:07.380
Jason Mefford: What we’re seeing in business, in general, is a difference in the value proposition, if you will. Okay. And when I was back at Arthur Andersen, you know in the in the late 90s.

00:31:07.800 –> 00:31:14.820
Jason Mefford: We were actually doing some research and trying to figure out, like the value of human capital in organization.

00:31:15.540 –> 00:31:25.410
Jason Mefford: Because you look at some of the, the, the cap rates on companies, you know, you’ve got a company like Apple that has over a trillion dollars market capitalization.

00:31:25.980 –> 00:31:31.200
Jason Mefford: But if you look at the assets on their balance sheet. It’s nothing in comparison to that.

00:31:31.860 –> 00:31:45.570
Jason Mefford: And the gap has something to do with the human capital. The human this living system within the organization that’s where most of the value is in today’s organizations.

00:31:46.080 –> 00:31:57.300
Jason Mefford: The production line the, you know, once the systems are set up from an IT perspective, unless it’s something like an algorithm which again was developed by whom.

00:31:58.260 –> 00:32:08.070
Jason Mefford: Human Capital the living system that’s where the value in organizations is and is going to be going forward. So

00:32:08.550 –> 00:32:21.750
Jason Mefford: If we’re still just focusing on these subsystems that really don’t add that much value to the overall organization, then we’re missing a big mark. We need to start understanding and getting

00:32:22.170 –> 00:32:33.510
Jason Mefford: More into this and this is where again psychology comes in because it helps to explain why humans do the things that they do because we’re irrational. We’re not binary

00:32:34.590 –> 00:32:41.760
Barbara Siegenthaler: Predicting what they might do, and how the story might go on and you know i mean it’s know maybe a little bit of horse picture.

00:32:41.760 –> 00:32:51.240
Barbara Siegenthaler: Or too hard too harsh with have from using but I think going on with how it used to be as kind of like the entire professional committing suicide.

00:32:53.430 –> 00:32:54.630
Jason Mefford: I don’t think it’s that harsh.

00:32:54.810 –> 00:32:55.470
Jason Mefford: I don’t think so.

00:32:56.730 –> 00:33:01.440
Jason Mefford: Yeah, cuz I’ve been saying, Yeah, I haven’t used that analogy before but I might have to kind of use that

00:33:02.040 –> 00:33:06.030
Jason Mefford: Because if you know as our organizations are changing.

00:33:06.570 –> 00:33:18.210
Jason Mefford: If we don’t change. Eventually, we are effectively committing suicide. We’re working ourselves out of a job because we’re not changing as our organizations are changing.

00:33:19.440 –> 00:33:20.910
Barbara Siegenthaler: And, you know, also not

00:33:22.230 –> 00:33:27.690
Barbara Siegenthaler: You know, not being progressive enough at not adding value because at some point, I expect

00:33:28.110 –> 00:33:35.220
Barbara Siegenthaler: Many of the controls that are currently being being reviewed by internal auditors might end up being reviewed automatically

00:33:36.120 –> 00:33:38.220
Jason Mefford: It will. That’s where the that’s where the bots in the

00:33:38.730 –> 00:33:45.540
Barbara Siegenthaler: coming in right now nation will tell us what’s what’s what’s remaining and then it’s basically the human factor is knowing how humans.

00:33:46.020 –> 00:33:56.790
Barbara Siegenthaler: Behave and and how the story will go on and you know it’s also topic like ethics, not from a food perspective, what is important as well. But, you know, ethics, it’s, it’s, um,

00:33:58.140 –> 00:33:58.680
Barbara Siegenthaler: Yeah.

00:34:00.210 –> 00:34:09.030
Barbara Siegenthaler: Well, it’s, it’s very interesting times. And then I really left the profession. You know, I heard your, your, your podcast that a touch of grey send me

00:34:10.230 –> 00:34:10.740
Barbara Siegenthaler: A touch of

00:34:11.670 –> 00:34:12.330
Jason Mefford: To hear me sing.

00:34:13.980 –> 00:34:15.180
Barbara Siegenthaler: Well, we can start seeing is

00:34:16.290 –> 00:34:36.780
Barbara Siegenthaler: Just growing up. So, and you really said that you care about interludes years and the internal audit profession. I mean, I spent a lot of time, not only working as an internal auditor, but basically creating a new a new way to work for internal auditors and through reception is

00:34:38.520 –> 00:34:40.320
Barbara Siegenthaler: Even when I’m actually trading except

00:34:46.770 –> 00:34:48.630
Barbara Siegenthaler: For internal auditors and

00:34:49.380 –> 00:34:51.240
Barbara Siegenthaler: Sometimes even when I say

00:34:51.570 –> 00:34:58.830
Barbara Siegenthaler: interconnectivity patterns between personality two systems, the systems already shut down. People say, we don’t understand this.

00:34:59.880 –> 00:35:02.100
Jason Mefford: Well, it’s about time, they start understanding it.

00:35:02.460 –> 00:35:12.870
Barbara Siegenthaler: And it’s actually complexity, it’s, it’s about, you know, having more than three elements, you’re playing around with, you know, I mean this binary thinking is a beauty.

00:35:13.680 –> 00:35:22.350
Barbara Siegenthaler: I love, I love it. Well, analytical thinking it’s great. But we have to know what it can and what it comes and when to switch it on and when to switch it off.

00:35:22.800 –> 00:35:37.020
Barbara Siegenthaler: And when to use. Are there other things. And so we should, in my view, we should be come experts in human behavior, combined with our knowledge that we have today, but this would require an entirely

00:35:38.160 –> 00:35:40.260
Barbara Siegenthaler: Or a partly different

00:35:41.370 –> 00:35:43.860
Barbara Siegenthaler: Formation and training.

00:35:45.540 –> 00:35:49.620
Jason Mefford: Yeah. And maybe that’s another you know because like you said when you start saying things like

00:35:50.370 –> 00:35:56.940
Jason Mefford: You know, organizational personality and you start talking about, you know, some of these different things. People just kind of zone out right

00:35:57.630 –> 00:36:06.720
Jason Mefford: And maybe people do too. When I just even use the words psychology, if they’re like, all, all you know well okay if you don’t like those words. How about human behavior.

00:36:07.440 –> 00:36:17.070
Jason Mefford: Hey everybody, you need to understand human behavior better than you currently do because I can guarantee you, most, most of the problems you’re having

00:36:17.700 –> 00:36:31.440
Jason Mefford: Even like with an audit client. Let’s say you’ve got an audit client that’s just a pain in the butt. Right. Well, it’s because you don’t understand human behavior. You don’t understand what you’re doing and how that’s affecting that person.

00:36:31.830 –> 00:36:35.100
Jason Mefford: And how, what they’re doing is actually mirroring back

00:36:35.160 –> 00:36:44.940
Jason Mefford: To you actually some of the stuff that you’re you’re that you’re doing. Right. And so we have to we have to learn. We have to get into the human side of it because

00:36:45.480 –> 00:36:52.950
Jason Mefford: Like you said, most of the stuff that we’ve been auditing for 100 years is being automated and and we don’t need people

00:36:53.370 –> 00:37:07.890
Jason Mefford: To do what audit has done for the last hundred years. We got computers that can do that. So if you want to stay relevant. You’ve got to understand and learn how human behavior goes and how we need to start tying that into what we’re doing as auditors.

00:37:09.330 –> 00:37:12.510
Barbara Siegenthaler: Absolutely, yes. I, I fully agree.

00:37:15.000 –> 00:37:20.910
Jason Mefford: Well, and with that I just kind of looked at the time we got we’re going to end up having to kind of cut it off. Now, like I said, I think we could both

00:37:21.510 –> 00:37:24.900
Jason Mefford: Geek Out for a couple hours just talking about all this stuff, but

00:37:26.820 –> 00:37:35.640
Jason Mefford: You know, maybe any, any final thoughts that you that you have for people that just kind of, you know, wrap up a little bit of what we’ve been talking about here for half hour 40 minutes

00:37:37.080 –> 00:37:41.550
Barbara Siegenthaler: Um, any foods. Um, yes. Have a look at my page.

00:37:41.940 –> 00:38:00.540
Barbara Siegenthaler: I felt that pay child tears that explains my work really good. It’s kind of almost a gift to the internal only profession and you can find it at personality miners based minus audit.com personally t minus baseline is already.com

00:38:01.290 –> 00:38:05.820
Barbara Siegenthaler: And if you wanted very short and sweet. Go to my web page for non auditor’s

00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:08.250
Barbara Siegenthaler: That’s 70 m.com

00:38:08.790 –> 00:38:10.260
Jason Mefford: How do you spell that serve it and

00:38:10.350 –> 00:38:13.080
Barbara Siegenthaler: Sad. Oh, I’ll let you know. Okay.

00:38:13.560 –> 00:38:19.500
Jason Mefford: Well, we’ll do is we’ll put it, we’ll put it in the show notes. So that way people can just go down, click on it and you’ll actually be taken.

00:38:19.500 –> 00:38:19.980
Jason Mefford: Out there.

00:38:20.610 –> 00:38:39.300
Barbara Siegenthaler: And it’s really, we need more psychology and internal wanted to remain and stay relevant we need predictive insights and we should be aware, set it is subjective. Yeah, we give subjective assurance.

00:38:42.030 –> 00:38:55.020
Jason Mefford: A lot of people. Well, the reality is, like, like we said before, we believe we’re giving objective, but it’s really subjective because it’s all based again on our biases and that of our group as well.

00:38:55.590 –> 00:39:01.500
Barbara Siegenthaler: And admitting that it’s subjective. That’s where the power of the profession is because then you can start talking

00:39:03.420 –> 00:39:05.490
Barbara Siegenthaler: That’s where the power of the profession is

00:39:06.990 –> 00:39:07.590
Jason Mefford: Very true.

00:39:08.850 –> 00:39:13.260
Jason Mefford: Very true. Well, thank you, Barbara for taking time with me today. I always a

00:39:13.260 –> 00:39:14.580
Barbara Siegenthaler: Pleasure. Thank you.

00:39:14.700 –> 00:39:19.710
Jason Mefford: I always love finding that there’s other people in the world that maybe you’re just as crazy as me.

00:39:21.540 –> 00:39:22.320
Jason Mefford: So, thank you.

00:39:24.120 –> 00:39:25.500
Barbara Siegenthaler: You’re welcome.

00:39:25.920 –> 00:39:37.110
Jason Mefford: And everybody so go out and you know again go back. This is a good episode for you to even go back and listen to, again, because I know some of the things that we may be said the first time.

00:39:37.560 –> 00:39:50.010
Jason Mefford: If their terms that you’re not really familiar with, you know, because Barbara and I have both been in this in this area for quite a while talking about some of these things that go back, listen to it again take some notes.

00:39:51.120 –> 00:40:01.890
Jason Mefford: And and again go out to her website look up the information that she has out there, she’s giving you a gift. So, go get the gift. Okay. Click on the in the show notes down below.

00:40:02.280 –> 00:40:17.490
Jason Mefford: And actually go out and get it because it’s going to help you to understand human behavior better because that’s what we’ve got to start understanding better and start incorporating into what we’re doing in the future. All right. So, Barbara. Again, thank

00:40:17.490 –> 00:40:19.110
Barbara Siegenthaler: You. Thank you very much.

00:40:19.470 –> 00:40:24.750
Jason Mefford: And everybody. Have a great week and we’ll catch you on a future episode of jamming with Jason. See ya.

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