In this episode of our Lessons from a Chief Audit Executive (CAE) series, I speak with Bruce Turner about his career, his most recently released book: “New Auditor’s Guide to Internal Auditing,” his next book he is writing for team leaders, and how he is giving back in his third act of life to the profession of internal auditing.
I had the privilege of working with Bruce on “Sawyer’s Internal Auditing, Seventh Edition” which you can find at the IIA Bookstore and on Amazon in Kindle version (https://www.amazon.com/Sawyers-Internal-Auditing-Protecting-Organizational-ebook/dp/B07RBJKG5B/ref=sr_1_3) or Hardcover (https://www.amazon.com/Sawyers-Internal-Auditing-Protecting-Organizational/dp/1634540522/ref=sr_1_1).
You can find Bruce’s book “New Auditor’s Guide to Internal Auditing” at the IIA Bookstore and on Amazon in Kindle (https://www.amazon.com/New-Auditors-Guide-Internal-Auditing-ebook/dp/B07RY4D3RQ/ref=sr_1_2) and Paperback (https://www.amazon.com/New-Auditors-Guide-Internal-Auditing/dp/1634540549/ref=sr_1_1)
Bruce R. Turner, AM, CRMA, CISA, CFE, has more than 40 years of practitioner and leadership experience in internal auditing, including being the Chief Audit Executive at several organizations. He was the second professional internal auditor in Australia to receive Order of Australia honors. He was appointed a Member (AM) in the Queen’s Birthday Honors of 2015 in recognition of his significant service to public administration through governance and risk management practices and to the profession of internal auditing. He has recruited dozens of new auditors into internal audit roles throughout his career and watched proudly as their careers blossomed.
Transcript
1
00:00:02.010 –> 00:00:18.810
Well welcome my friends to another episode of jamming with Jason. Hey, today we’ve got, I’ve got a really special friend and guest on Bruce Turner and, you know, Bruce and I work together on this soil years internal auditing.
2
00:00:19.980 –> 00:00:29.550
version seven that just came out recently and wanted to make sure and have him on the on the show because Bruce has an amazing career.
3
00:00:30.300 –> 00:00:46.170
In and and a couple of different books that he’s written and other stuff like that that we want to kind of jump into that is really important information. If you’re in the internet a lot of things space that you should get ahold of so Bruce welcome on man.
4
00:00:47.940 –> 00:00:54.900
Thank you, Jason. It’s good to be able to talk to you. Well, and I guess, you know, in the US, I usually say, man, but I need to remember. I should be
5
00:00:54.930 –> 00:00:55.800
Saying, mate.
6
00:00:55.830 –> 00:00:56.490
To right
7
00:00:58.680 –> 00:00:59.850
So absolutely.
8
00:01:00.420 –> 00:01:01.080
Yeah, so
9
00:01:01.110 –> 00:01:05.160
So, Bruce. Maybe you know i i know who you are, but maybe just kind of
10
00:01:05.160 –> 00:01:05.550
For the
11
00:01:05.580 –> 00:01:18.090
For the listeners, give them a little background, you know, kind of about your career because I know you know you’ve you’ve had a long career in internal audit. You’ve done a lot of things. And so because of that you bring a lot of
12
00:01:18.090 –> 00:01:19.410
Different perspective.
13
00:01:20.040 –> 00:01:21.540
That most people out there don’t actually
14
00:01:21.540 –> 00:01:22.080
Have
15
00:01:25.320 –> 00:01:39.750
That’s right, Jason. I started in internal alerting way back in the late 70s, and when I was at the International Conference in Anaheim. Last month I mentioned in one of my presentations here that I’d spent 21 million minutes in internal auditing.
16
00:01:41.580 –> 00:01:42.270
That’s a lot.
17
00:01:43.440 –> 00:01:49.140
It is, and I was really fortunate to start in internal auditing in a commercial bank and
18
00:01:50.250 –> 00:01:53.100
Enjoyed the time doing that I
19
00:01:54.120 –> 00:02:00.840
Committed my career in banking and therefore had a pretty good pedigree. By the time I moved into the internal auditing area.
20
00:02:01.530 –> 00:02:14.160
And I ended up spending probably it needs in the banking arena across commercial banking merchant banking in central banking and ultimately I specialized in auditing commitment, the
21
00:02:15.210 –> 00:02:25.410
Treasury operations and commercial lending operations of those those banks which centered in Australia and I moved across 200 in New York and did work every day for a while.
22
00:02:27.210 –> 00:02:37.560
I then shifted a little bit and left banking and move to hit up the internal audit function at a state while which was the organization that when passenger services in my state.
23
00:02:38.190 –> 00:02:47.280
I spent a few years there and then moved into head of audits and risk management role at integral energy which supplied power to community.
24
00:02:48.000 –> 00:03:00.270
And I finished my career at the Australian Taxation Office, which is one of the biggest public sector organizations in Australia. So as the chief audit executive there and had a had a wonderful five years before ended up retiring.
25
00:03:01.800 –> 00:03:04.050
Well, and now there’s, you know, because I know sometimes
26
00:03:04.380 –> 00:03:20.670
You know, people might ask, Is there life after retirement. Well, I think you’ve been staying pretty busy to in retirement. And, you know, serving on boards and doing some other stuff as well, you know, even, even after and and like I said, You’ve continued to give back to the profession.
27
00:03:20.730 –> 00:03:23.730
You know, we’ll get into talking about some of the books and other stuff that you’ve been
28
00:03:23.730 –> 00:03:24.210
Doing
29
00:03:25.410 –> 00:03:32.280
But yeah, I mean, so, so like I said an amazing career, you know, kind of starting off outside of audit coming into audit.
30
00:03:32.280 –> 00:03:33.180
Moving up
31
00:03:33.330 –> 00:03:43.560
Being a chief audit executive at several different organizations, you know, being being an author, being a board member. I mean, it’s like you. You really do have a broad
32
00:03:45.000 –> 00:03:50.850
You know spectrum of experience that now you know again you’re sharing with people.
33
00:03:52.140 –> 00:03:58.950
You know across, across the world. So it was, it was fun to be able to run into and see in Anaheim. And I know those, those are always
34
00:04:00.570 –> 00:04:12.600
I don’t know if you read this way too but you know I there’s some people I hadn’t seen in 10 or 15 years you know that all of a sudden were together. And it’s like, oh, wow, you know, time, time goes, time goes so
35
00:04:14.340 –> 00:04:17.340
So I wanted to talk about, because I know, I know you just had
36
00:04:18.450 –> 00:04:21.510
A book that came out just recently through the eye.
37
00:04:21.540 –> 00:04:22.590
Foundation. It’s in
38
00:04:22.620 –> 00:04:24.390
It’s in the bookstore and I think you can get it on
39
00:04:24.390 –> 00:04:27.960
Amazon to call new auditors guide to internal auditing.
40
00:04:28.680 –> 00:04:30.780
So maybe if we can we can talk just a little bit.
41
00:04:30.780 –> 00:04:35.100
About that, because I I think this is a great resource for people
42
00:04:35.490 –> 00:04:37.290
Especially new to the profession.
43
00:04:38.430 –> 00:04:50.340
You know, whichever way they end up coming in. And so maybe if you can kind of explain a little bit about, you know, what’s what’s in that book, what people can kind of expect and and how it can help them in their career.
44
00:04:54.630 –> 00:05:06.900
I guess we identified initially the marketplace for the new words is God because people traditionally came into internal auditing from more junior positions in typically
45
00:05:07.860 –> 00:05:21.660
They left University, they completed their studies. And they found a job in internal order thing, and some of them actually stumbled into the profession and what’s the matter struggled invite I did style because it’s a fantastic profession and wonderful career.
46
00:05:23.670 –> 00:05:30.660
But in recent years you finding there’s more and more people who will come into into the audit at most senior positions.
47
00:05:31.320 –> 00:05:38.580
And a bunch of these folks coming from other professions. I saw a couple of examples in the book where people have come from.
48
00:05:39.060 –> 00:05:47.340
The same background as an example and move into internal auditing and then need to learn about internal auditing and the challenges that go with that.
49
00:05:47.820 –> 00:06:00.960
And one of the things is that people at that most senior level and mature their experience and they’ve established, you know, credibility and it shows, but when they come into the nursing profession.
50
00:06:02.010 –> 00:06:11.850
Is starting at the ground level. And they’ve got so much to learn. And that creates a lot of software for them as well because they’ve moved from being the expert in your field.
51
00:06:12.870 –> 00:06:21.270
In the clouds, because of the maturity have great expectations of them. So the idea is that the book sort of guys through all of those elements.
52
00:06:22.380 –> 00:06:25.950
That people should be familiar with coming into internal auditing.
53
00:06:26.820 –> 00:06:36.630
Who have internal order you know a bit about the profession and the capabilities and the roles that talks about the wide internal auditing and touches on the governance risk management control.
54
00:06:37.350 –> 00:06:48.060
It talks about the international Professional Practices framework. It then moves into the house in order to you know get the planning through the conducting interviews risk assessments and development order programs.
55
00:06:48.720 –> 00:06:55.290
And then it touches on the winnable internal auditing, you know, getting into the meat of it. The field work and lighting up boarded reports and
56
00:06:55.740 –> 00:07:04.920
Participating effectively in quality assessment for us and in the hopper. What a recommendation. So it gives a really good understanding to people about
57
00:07:05.580 –> 00:07:19.290
The profession and it shares a lot of stories from the front line where I’ve asked 50 practitioners from across the world to some of the insights and some of the best stories about each and loyalty and that’s included in special chapters of the book.
58
00:07:20.550 –> 00:07:23.070
Well, no. And I think that’s great. And like you said, I think.
59
00:07:24.120 –> 00:07:33.120
You know, I mean if if we rewind back you know and i i didn’t start the profession quite when you did. Right. But I know even when I did back in the 90s.
60
00:07:34.320 –> 00:07:47.100
Kind of the, the common career path was you know somebody who kind of like me, you know, we go into public accounting. We work for a public accounting firm for, you know, two to 10 years
61
00:07:47.610 –> 00:07:50.880
And then you end up kind of transitioning into internal audit.
62
00:07:51.270 –> 00:07:59.250
And so people that come through that career path are already kind of familiar with audit. They’re kind of familiar with things like the work papers and
63
00:07:59.610 –> 00:08:06.930
Having to follow standards. It’s just a matter of, you know, switching from maybe a CPA standard to the CIA standards.
64
00:08:07.650 –> 00:08:20.040
But like you said, you know, especially the last, you know, 1015 years we’re we’re bringing a lot more people in with more experience technical experience because we need that in the departments.
65
00:08:20.520 –> 00:08:30.660
And so they kind of missed a lot of that. And you know, I can, I can only imagine because we as auditors. We have our own language and we don’t even realize it. Right. And I’m sure it
66
00:08:30.930 –> 00:08:31.500
Lately,
67
00:08:31.590 –> 00:08:32.970
I’m sure you got that and some of the
68
00:08:32.970 –> 00:08:43.050
Feedback with those case studies that you did have of you know words or terms or, you know, different things that we might even use and they’re like, what does that mean
69
00:08:45.150 –> 00:08:49.110
And it’s not just the words that they use of acronyms. It says to the acronyms for everything.
70
00:08:50.220 –> 00:08:59.490
So we need to understand that for internal alerting but across the business areas that we visit. There’s a whole like more acronyms there as well. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
71
00:08:59.940 –> 00:09:09.060
Well, and like you said, you know, I mean, there’s, I think, I think nursing is a is a great example of it right where we’re seeing more and more, I guess, non
72
00:09:09.630 –> 00:09:10.740
non traditional is
73
00:09:10.800 –> 00:09:17.700
Not necessarily the right word. It’s just, it’s just the experience has been there but of bringing people that are
74
00:09:18.210 –> 00:09:31.620
Are more experienced more technical kind of in the areas of our organization and bring those skill sets that that operational side into the internal audit profession.
75
00:09:31.950 –> 00:09:38.280
So I think like the example of nurses is great. Right. And some people might say, why would you hire a nurse. Well, if you’re a hospital.
76
00:09:38.640 –> 00:09:53.190
Having a nurse on the internal audit team who understands all the medical terms can read, I can read the charts, you know, because I remember as a new auditor trying to read medical charts. When I was out of the hospitals and it’s like, I don’t understand any of this stuff right so
77
00:09:53.250 –> 00:09:54.390
We’re like, technically. Yep.
78
00:09:54.780 –> 00:09:55.800
Yeah, so these kinetic
79
00:09:55.860 –> 00:09:57.000
Including us
80
00:09:57.240 –> 00:10:05.730
Yeah yeah extends into other patients as well you know lawyers coming across to an organization that has a lot of contracts is really useful.
81
00:10:06.120 –> 00:10:15.300
I’ve used teachers who’ve come from it out adult education background and they’re really good people to get out there and start educating people about the risk of fraud and corruption.
82
00:10:15.810 –> 00:10:23.910
You know, I’ve had former police officers and detectives coming in and working in my investigations team. I’ve had business process engineers who’ve come in.
83
00:10:25.260 –> 00:10:28.440
Where there’s been a particular improvement focus within the organization.
84
00:10:29.760 –> 00:10:36.390
And as we start drilling into the tops of people who are coming in, we can actually see the potential of having a multi disciplinary order.
85
00:10:38.400 –> 00:10:39.210
Well, and I think that
86
00:10:39.270 –> 00:10:43.290
That is the future. That’s, that’s where we’re going. Because again, you know, the more
87
00:10:43.890 –> 00:10:59.430
The more technical our organizations get and we probably should have been doing it all along. We just I think kind of woke up, you know, a decade or so ago and have started to try to bring bring more people in because we need that skill set and
88
00:11:00.300 –> 00:11:07.710
To really understand the business better you know there’s that whole that whole term. You need to understand the business, but it’s it’s different.
89
00:11:07.770 –> 00:11:12.600
To just interview somebody and kind of understand what they’re doing versus actually
90
00:11:13.080 –> 00:11:17.820
You know, having been a lawyer for five years or a nurse or a police officer.
91
00:11:18.510 –> 00:11:20.040
You bring in a completely
92
00:11:20.040 –> 00:11:24.720
Different set of experiences and it makes our teams, much, much better. So
93
00:11:26.040 –> 00:11:27.540
It doesn’t it. Yeah.
94
00:11:28.410 –> 00:11:42.870
So I you know I know that’s like you said, that’s a great niche book. So for anybody who’s maybe new new into internal auditing. This is a great resource for you, right, to be able to kind of understand and get a leg up on
95
00:11:42.900 –> 00:11:44.250
On some of the stuff that’s going
96
00:11:44.250 –> 00:11:47.130
On out there. So whether you’re the new auditor.
97
00:11:47.580 –> 00:11:48.780
Or even if you’re the
98
00:11:48.810 –> 00:11:49.950
You know the supervisor.
99
00:11:49.950 –> 00:11:52.170
Manager, CAE. Who’s bringing
100
00:11:52.170 –> 00:11:53.280
People in
101
00:11:54.000 –> 00:11:57.270
From other parts of the organization. This is a great resource.
102
00:11:57.510 –> 00:12:01.260
To help them out and to help help you even kind of understand and
103
00:12:01.290 –> 00:12:15.270
empathize with what some of these people may be going through as well. Now I know you’re what you’re working on a new book, too. And I think, I think the working title is something about the team leaders book. Right. You want to tell us a little bit about that.
104
00:12:15.330 –> 00:12:16.620
And what we can expect with that.
105
00:12:18.060 –> 00:12:22.170
Yeah, so the working title at the moment is team leaders guide to internal lot of leadership.
106
00:12:23.160 –> 00:12:28.230
And the idea there is that in a team leaders that doing a lot more of the heavy lifting these guys and I used to
107
00:12:28.650 –> 00:12:39.720
Simply because the role of internal auditing is expanding and more and more chief ordered executives across the world and moving into the C suite so that they’re working very closely with the executives.
108
00:12:40.590 –> 00:12:47.490
Within the organization as a consequence is a lot of things that shape ordered executives used to do which get passed down the line.
109
00:12:48.240 –> 00:12:55.200
And we’ve got a great resource. But recorded executives and people in the C suite with saw his internal auditing seventh edition is, you mentioned a little earlier.
110
00:12:56.130 –> 00:13:04.710
But below that below that is there’s a gap in terms of what team leaders and given to inform them about a challenge changing role.
111
00:13:05.160 –> 00:13:14.040
So the idea of this team leaders guide you to actually help them transition into what it’s a different playing field to what they would have been used to playing
112
00:13:15.990 –> 00:13:18.480
Well, and so what what are some of those things. Now that you
113
00:13:18.480 –> 00:13:19.950
Know, like you said, because
114
00:13:20.970 –> 00:13:24.210
Because in a lot of organizations. The CIA is
115
00:13:24.270 –> 00:13:26.340
Really kind of bring being brought up.
116
00:13:26.370 –> 00:13:43.080
To the C suite level. And so they’re, they’re really are acting more like an executive in the organization. What are some of those common things now that are are kind of being put down on to the team leaders that they that they didn’t use to have to deal with necessarily
117
00:13:45.720 –> 00:13:58.980
It actually goes to lots of different parts of, you know, the internal ORDERING PROCESS process from your initial planning of the word program for the next 12 months will beyond through the engagement plan.
118
00:14:00.060 –> 00:14:04.560
And making a lot more decisions in those areas and that would have been used to doing.
119
00:14:05.460 –> 00:14:12.120
It also gets them through to shaping the internal audit team through professional development through recruitment.
120
00:14:12.840 –> 00:14:26.850
Through performance evaluations are image in the early days, it was the chief audit executive. He did all the performance prizes. Well, that’s actually been pushed down there and a lot of that work is now being performed quite appropriately by train leaders.
121
00:14:27.990 –> 00:14:34.500
So effectively what we’re trying to explore in this book is, you know, what does it mean to step into the team leader role and
122
00:14:35.310 –> 00:14:43.350
What are the things that you need to be across you know the strategic alignment talks about environmental awareness and what they need to do in that space.
123
00:14:43.860 –> 00:14:52.290
The importance of relationship management and the role that team leaders play in that space. These days, as well as not just simply a matter of going out and doing an order.
124
00:14:53.130 –> 00:14:59.790
At a Broken Hill. It’s having a much better appreciation for have a hall of the businesses operating
125
00:15:00.600 –> 00:15:16.560
maintaining relationships on a regular basis through all people within the organization. And when you do go out to remote locations. What, what additional communication and you provide to them because people in these remote locations are often often start of good information.
126
00:15:17.610 –> 00:15:24.360
I feel a bit isolated. So it’s a it’s a wonderful opportunity for team leaders to to get out there and present things
127
00:15:25.050 –> 00:15:32.340
On topics that they’re familiar with, which actually bring the people in those remote locations along in their own development as well.
128
00:15:33.030 –> 00:15:45.480
So it’s fairly wide, wide reaching in terms of what it covers and and gets into even basic things around the scheduling awarded engagements and what can you do to innovate in terms of the practices in us and
129
00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:58.320
Leveraging integrator working and then getting down to go library reports that are much more crisp than what they used to, I need to be short, sharp and see what actually covers a whole line to various use cases.
130
00:15:59.040 –> 00:16:01.020
Well, which is going to be great because I think one of
131
00:16:01.050 –> 00:16:02.280
One of the things, at least I
132
00:16:03.300 –> 00:16:05.040
I saw this with myself and you know in
133
00:16:05.040 –> 00:16:09.330
public accounting, as well as in a lot of the audit shops that I was in, we
134
00:16:09.360 –> 00:16:29.640
We usually do a very good job of teaching people how to audit. Right. And so we become very good at kind of the technical aspect to our job. But often, you know, we don’t do as much with teaching people, some of these soft skills relationships communication, some of these other stuff.
135
00:16:31.470 –> 00:16:33.210
Excuse me, that they need to
136
00:16:34.560 –> 00:16:45.810
You know, be successful as a manager as a team leader. Right. We usually, you know, kind of have promoted people based on what you’ve been here long enough you really understand how to audit.
137
00:16:46.260 –> 00:17:02.340
And sometimes there’s some of these gaps and so I think this book is going to be a great you know opportunity for people to kind of see some of those things and maybe help us, you know, more proactively prepare people or realize some of these new
138
00:17:03.600 –> 00:17:14.550
Things that are kind of placed on the team leaders and be able to help them, you know, to get some of those skills. Before we just kind of throw them in the deep end of the pool and say start swimming, you know, sort of Annex.
139
00:17:14.880 –> 00:17:28.530
Well absolutely in it. It’s pretty much about the influencing skills as well. Yeah, which is part of those soft skills, you know, how do you get people to do some of the things that I need to do. But I’d really motivated to get in and and do
140
00:17:28.920 –> 00:17:31.860
Yeah, well, and I’ve been. I’ve been preaching that now for a few
141
00:17:31.860 –> 00:17:33.660
Years, because it’s
142
00:17:34.950 –> 00:17:45.630
Yeah. To me, that is that is one of the biggest and not just career skills, but life skills that we need to learn, you know, because we’re always
143
00:17:46.350 –> 00:17:55.290
Having to do things to persuade or help kind of influence people and and and there’s there actually is kind of a scientific way.
144
00:17:56.070 –> 00:18:05.700
On how this is actually done you know what you need to do and how psychology actually works. And you know a lot of people don’t really go go down that route.
145
00:18:06.150 –> 00:18:25.200
And and we really do need to learn how to do that so that we can. One of my friends is. He’s actually one of the top experts in the world on on on this topic, and he uses the term about persuading people that are in ways that are lasting and ethical right which is
146
00:18:25.410 –> 00:18:28.140
Which I think is beautiful because it’s about
147
00:18:28.650 –> 00:18:41.370
It’s about creating the relationship and communicating and yes using psychology, because you know there’s certain things like people are much more motivated on fear of loss and they are a fear of gain right
148
00:18:42.390 –> 00:18:53.670
But, you know, if we can do it in the right way. We’re effective at accomplishing our job helping them do what they need to do. But we also are building that relationship.
149
00:18:54.600 –> 00:19:04.380
In doing it in a way that everybody sees is ethical so I’m glad I’m glad that that’s being being brought up in the book because like is that I think that’s, that is one of the things that
150
00:19:05.580 –> 00:19:18.840
Especially as auditors because we, you know, I mean, you think about anytime that you have to deliver a report or, you know, do a meeting and if we’re asking people to, you know, implement change. Don’t we have to kind of persuade them.
151
00:19:19.890 –> 00:19:20.310
You know,
152
00:19:22.260 –> 00:19:31.890
Along the whole way. And I think, you know, the audit recordings is a primary document added added any audit and some people say that is the most important you know
153
00:19:32.580 –> 00:19:43.560
Visible piece of the puzzle. But I think it’s the hard yards has been well before any audit report comes out in terms of the intellect, you apply within
154
00:19:45.300 –> 00:19:51.210
The work you’re doing delivering against the audit objectives and ultimately influencing people to
155
00:19:51.990 –> 00:20:04.710
Do some things that they didn’t recognize they needed to do. So that’s the hard yards and the report is the tool. I guess that documents, all of that. And, you know, allows people to refer back to the
156
00:20:06.780 –> 00:20:09.450
Things I needed to do in hand again to do it. Yeah.
157
00:20:10.020 –> 00:20:11.400
Yeah. Cuz if we just wait until the
158
00:20:11.400 –> 00:20:15.150
Report. It’s kind of too late. At that point, there’s a lot of things we have to do.
159
00:20:16.860 –> 00:20:18.210
Along the way, yeah.
160
00:20:18.870 –> 00:20:20.970
Absolutely, yep. They’re very wise.
161
00:20:20.970 –> 00:20:27.750
Counsel, well hey you know another thing that I wanted to just be able to kind of talk about with you as to is
162
00:20:29.190 –> 00:20:34.080
You know, to maybe kind of explain a little bit or maybe share some insights
163
00:20:35.520 –> 00:20:45.210
You know, one of the podcasts that I listened to one of his questions that he asked every, every guest. And so this is kind of my my version of it is
164
00:20:45.540 –> 00:20:58.320
You know, something to the effect of, what would you tell your 21 year old self today, right. So, like if you were 21 again or in this instance, like if you’re starting off in an internal audit career or you’re younger in your
165
00:20:58.320 –> 00:20:59.040
Career.
166
00:20:59.640 –> 00:21:14.610
You know, what are some of the things that you wish you had known lessons that you’ve learned across your career and and by being a CA that you think are important things that you’d want to share with others.
167
00:21:15.660 –> 00:21:21.090
Who are in the in this career and kind of moving up or trying to head towards that way for a long term career.
168
00:21:23.640 –> 00:21:28.350
So they’re probably three key things I’ll touch on Jason and we can expand on that, if you like.
169
00:21:29.250 –> 00:21:47.760
You know, I think one of the most important starting points is professional development and that is investing in the development of your staff, I’d much rather shave some dollars off my starting budget and reinvest that through training and development. They’re not to say
170
00:21:48.270 –> 00:22:03.810
Because we’re relying on their auditors being credible and the the eyes and the ears of the chief audit executive. So that’s one part of it. And the other part of the professional development is your own commitment to maintaining
171
00:22:05.310 –> 00:22:05.940
Skills.
172
00:22:05.970 –> 00:22:14.310
That you need for your particular role so professional development for me as a starting point. The other thing that I’ll touch on now.
173
00:22:15.630 –> 00:22:25.410
Things that I wasn’t aware of until I became the chief audit executive and when I did I was I was holding a very senior position in internal audit and
174
00:22:26.760 –> 00:22:43.380
I had never actually been to an audit committee meeting so its first order committee meeting. I went to, I was the chief audit executive. Can I actually didn’t know how they operate, which in some respects was a good thing because I could go in and naively start changing
175
00:22:44.580 –> 00:22:55.500
Things to the way that I thought I should operate and that proved to be quite a good thing, but I hadn’t actually attended complete an order committee meeting until I was in that actually from
176
00:22:56.700 –> 00:23:06.990
The second thing in this conversation that I wanted to throw out there was around the risk of Chief ordered executives to go into an organization.
177
00:23:07.590 –> 00:23:14.640
With a transformation agenda and it’s a really difficult thing at the best of times
178
00:23:15.300 –> 00:23:27.270
But there’s a lot of people within that organization and even within the internal audit team, you actually don’t want the changes that you’re there to implement. So what can happen is that they can be Washington
179
00:23:29.010 –> 00:23:34.380
Of the things you’re trying to do. So you actually need to be acutely aware of that as a risk.
180
00:23:35.610 –> 00:23:45.960
And when things do start coming for you gotta be ready to address them and address them fairly quickly. Well, yeah. And that actually actually because
181
00:23:46.740 –> 00:23:54.180
When you say that it just a couple of different experiences that I had in my career just popped into my head and that is
182
00:23:55.140 –> 00:24:00.840
I’ve seen this, not just from chief executives, but other executives that I’ve worked with and coached over the years to
183
00:24:01.440 –> 00:24:10.830
Is there there is like you said it, it is a real risk. You know, when you go into a new position like that. I mean, obviously we’re the new
184
00:24:11.550 –> 00:24:19.740
The new executive in town. We want to show everybody that we know what we’re talking about, you know, that we that we understand and we can create this transformation.
185
00:24:20.610 –> 00:24:25.860
But a lot of times, like you said, even in the best of times, it’s a very difficult thing to do.
186
00:24:26.400 –> 00:24:33.990
And inevitably, a lot of times when people go into aggressive and try to be too quick without really understanding the culture.
187
00:24:34.680 –> 00:24:44.910
They really end up getting themselves in trouble. I mean, I just, just to illustrate like one one story when I early earlier in my career right when I was considering leaving public accounting
188
00:24:45.630 –> 00:24:51.450
I remember interviewing with Chief audit executive who he was new in his role.
189
00:24:52.230 –> 00:24:58.410
And he was kind of explaining, you know, like you said, This transformational agenda, kind of like what you’re talking about.
190
00:24:58.860 –> 00:25:06.540
And I remember him him saying some things like, oh, you know, the I doesn’t know what they’re talking about this. That’s not what internal out, it’s going to be. I’m going to create
191
00:25:06.960 –> 00:25:12.180
The best, you know, world class internal audit thing. And I don’t think they know what they’re talking about you.
192
00:25:12.990 –> 00:25:23.190
Effectively is kind of what he was saying. And I remember sitting in the interview going, Oh my gosh, guys. First off, I’m not going to work for you anyway. But, you know, a year later.
193
00:25:24.240 –> 00:25:28.290
Because I kind of followed what happened like I didn’t have a job right.
194
00:25:28.590 –> 00:25:29.580
Yeah, it is. It
195
00:25:29.610 –> 00:25:32.340
Is you end up sometimes really kind of
196
00:25:32.370 –> 00:25:34.500
cutting your legs off, you know,
197
00:25:36.090 –> 00:25:50.100
You know, by, by trying to be that way and not really understanding the culture not using those influence techniques that we were talking about before that you so need at that at that at that point. So anyway. Sorry, I just I just said flashback.
198
00:25:52.800 –> 00:25:56.640
So, and I think it’s important to share these things chosen because
199
00:25:57.930 –> 00:26:01.080
It’s easy to go into these roles and think it’s all
200
00:26:02.100 –> 00:26:13.710
You know, nice and pleasant, and so forth. But he can actually be very, very challenging. And it can be very emotionally draining. I mean, you might have the right technical skills, you might have the right soft skills to do the job.
201
00:26:14.850 –> 00:26:25.080
But it’s the difficulty of dealing with really, really hard situations that often, you know, the people haven’t had to deal with at any time in a career. Yeah.
202
00:26:25.680 –> 00:26:26.520
Well, and it is, I mean,
203
00:26:26.970 –> 00:26:27.480
And I guess.
204
00:26:28.500 –> 00:26:40.920
I guess the key, the key there is understanding that there’s people within the organization or within the profession that you can talk to and make sure you do that and you know if you can, if you can get a good case in a good mentor.
205
00:26:42.150 –> 00:26:48.420
Well, and that and that is so important. I mean, that’s you know because I experienced that, too. You know, like I said, where I
206
00:26:48.810 –> 00:26:53.520
You know your your story of kind of showing up and it was your first audit audit committee meeting. I mean I had
207
00:26:53.940 –> 00:27:05.250
It wasn’t with the audit committee, but I had similar experiences like that where all of a sudden, I’m thrown into a situation. This is the first time I’ve ever had to deal with it right and and like you said, it is
208
00:27:05.940 –> 00:27:13.170
You know, a lot of times we think, oh, when I finally become chief audit executive, then everything is going to be easy. I’m going to be making all this money and
209
00:27:13.500 –> 00:27:16.020
Everybody else is going to be doing the work. And it’s like,
210
00:27:17.070 –> 00:27:31.380
You know if you think that stop right it’s it’s a tough job. There’s a reason why you get paid what you get paid. And why why it takes you so long to get there because it is challenging. And you do have to reach out
211
00:27:31.380 –> 00:27:32.370
Have mentors.
212
00:27:32.640 –> 00:27:38.640
You know, maybe, maybe join groups peer groups, other things like that to be able to try to get the support because
213
00:27:39.060 –> 00:27:41.010
It’s a hard job to do by yourself.
214
00:27:41.700 –> 00:27:53.370
And most of the time the things you’re going through you’ve never experienced before. So you have no idea really how to respond and you’re hoping you know that you’re making the right choice, but it’s so much nicer to be able to
215
00:27:54.480 –> 00:28:03.150
You know, refer to or talk back to somebody else and kind of bounce ideas off of them and and make sure what you’re doing. So you don’t go in and do
216
00:28:03.660 –> 00:28:18.030
What we always used to call a career limiting move right. You never want to do a CLS career limiting move and, you know, the more help, and that you can get from mentors or others, the less likely you are to actually encounter one of those
217
00:28:20.280 –> 00:28:31.230
And that’s very true. And I think, you know, chief executive and internal auditing is a very fulfilling career. And so we’re not sort of trying to paint gloom and doom.
218
00:28:32.430 –> 00:28:40.320
People if people need to be aware that there are some challenges. But once you’ve confronted those challenges and navigated them successfully.
219
00:28:41.430 –> 00:28:45.750
You get a lot of joy out of the work that you do. Oh, yeah, yeah.
220
00:28:45.780 –> 00:28:48.180
It’s a, it’s a very rewarding career.
221
00:28:49.410 –> 00:28:52.020
Like you said, you just obviously it’s like with
222
00:28:52.020 –> 00:29:00.600
Anything new right i mean anytime you’re learning something new. There’s the, the change and, you know, stuff that you have to go through on that so
223
00:29:01.350 –> 00:29:08.070
All right, well, I know we kind of started a little sidetracked on that one. But you said there was kind of a third thing then to that you were, you know,
224
00:29:08.640 –> 00:29:10.170
Trying to think about this.
225
00:29:10.200 –> 00:29:11.370
As well that you
226
00:29:11.490 –> 00:29:13.290
Want to make sure that people were aware of, too.
227
00:29:15.300 –> 00:29:24.780
And I think that’s very much around the direction of the internal audit function, you know, what is it that you want to achieve and make sure that you have a shared vision.
228
00:29:25.410 –> 00:29:32.940
With the chief executives and with the audit committee and if that’s World Class, Order team, you need to understand what that actually means.
229
00:29:33.600 –> 00:29:44.130
What of applying such a need to put in clients. So once you’ve got a clear idea of your vision. It’s then making sure that you develop a strategic roadmap.
230
00:29:44.490 –> 00:29:53.730
That identify what you are going to do within internal audit over the next 12 months, two years, three years to get to the position.
231
00:29:54.540 –> 00:30:03.210
That provision needs to take you to, and there are so many different elements involved in that and the timing is really critical in terms of
232
00:30:04.020 –> 00:30:13.890
Different elements. So if you’re moving down the path of great automation of your Your order will you need to actually invest in the training with your people.
233
00:30:14.580 –> 00:30:24.690
Whether it’s one of the software solutions for cats like ACL when you’re going to to adopt particularly hot official intelligence. What does that mean,
234
00:30:25.170 –> 00:30:34.590
When are you going to do it. What are you going to do it on. There’s a whole range of things that you need to prepare on day one, or what you can deliver in in YouTube. Will you through
235
00:30:35.190 –> 00:30:48.390
So I think that’s the next thing that’s really important to me. Jason is having vision and having the strategic roadmap that’s going to take you where the water committee and the chief executive wants you to be in a couple years contract.
236
00:30:49.380 –> 00:30:52.890
Yeah, and I think that’s, that’s actually it’s a really good point to for people
237
00:30:52.890 –> 00:30:59.940
That are there interviewing for positions, right, whether whether again it’s for a CA role or whether
238
00:30:59.940 –> 00:31:01.500
It’s a role within an audit.
239
00:31:01.500 –> 00:31:10.050
Department is for you to really kind of clearly understand what that vision is and what that role actually entails at that company.
240
00:31:11.550 –> 00:31:22.650
Because I think some, you know, sometimes we kind of almost get the feeling, or at least I can I get this from some people that I talked to that, you know, it’s like it’s like we want to go in and be a world class or, you know,
241
00:31:23.670 –> 00:31:40.740
Audit organization at every organization. It’s like, well, that’s not really how it works. Right. I mean, internal audit looks a little bit different. At every organization in every industry, it’s a little bit different. And so, you know, you have to, like you said, kind of line up with
242
00:31:41.760 –> 00:31:46.050
The vision of what that is and is this something that you actually
243
00:31:46.050 –> 00:31:47.550
Want to do right
244
00:31:47.970 –> 00:32:03.990
Because if you if you want to be a part of a world class audit function, then you need to make sure that you’re working for an organization where the board and the executives also want there to be a world class auditing organization. If not, you’re going to be really frustrated
245
00:32:05.340 –> 00:32:08.700
You know in in that whole thing too. And I think sometimes
246
00:32:08.700 –> 00:32:08.970
We
247
00:32:09.330 –> 00:32:17.640
We don’t stop to realize or recognize the internal auditing looks different around the world and different within different organizations.
248
00:32:17.790 –> 00:32:36.600
Even it does. And the other element is critical to the success is bringing your staff along, making sure that you’ve got their commitment and their capability to the vision and that they can contribute to the journey so that you can actually set yourself up for success.
249
00:32:37.710 –> 00:32:39.510
Well, and sometimes that’s where
250
00:32:39.960 –> 00:32:43.530
You know that I’ve, I’ve seen both in my career and other people that
251
00:32:43.530 –> 00:32:45.930
I’ve that I’ve worked with or talked with is
252
00:32:46.380 –> 00:32:54.360
You know, like that when you when you do change the vision or the direction you have to bring people along but some of those people may not
253
00:32:54.810 –> 00:33:02.130
Come along in the journey right because some of those people may not want what that future is and
254
00:33:03.060 –> 00:33:14.280
You know, sometimes those are some of the hard decisions that you have to make as well. But yeah, and this kind of goes back again to your first thing on professional development right is if if we want to get to a certain point, it
255
00:33:14.280 –> 00:33:15.090
Probably means
256
00:33:15.450 –> 00:33:31.170
Either either we need some new people to help in getting to that point, we need to develop the people that we do have, you know, we’ve got to use the influence and other stuff to try to to work, both within our team and within the organization to be able to help us get there so
257
00:33:32.280 –> 00:33:34.050
Very, very wise counsel.
258
00:33:35.100 –> 00:33:36.630
It’s, it’s like you’ve done this a
259
00:33:36.630 –> 00:33:37.350
Few times
260
00:33:38.910 –> 00:33:48.780
I haven’t failed and, you know, towards the end, it’s something you look back on with criteria because you’re actually leaving a legacy, not just within that organization, but
261
00:33:49.200 –> 00:33:56.940
Other people pick up on the good things that have been done and try to mirror those in the right organization. So it’s actually quite rewarding Jason
262
00:33:57.720 –> 00:33:58.080
Well,
263
00:33:58.110 –> 00:34:00.720
It is, and I’m glad that you brought that up because I know
264
00:34:02.520 –> 00:34:10.260
It is a very rewarding profession in general, I mean that’s why I’ve loved kind of being in this space and why I’m here.
265
00:34:11.100 –> 00:34:20.850
But it’s it’s it’s not just you know the value that we can provide to the organizations, but it’s it’s also what we do for the other people. Right. I mean, some of the people that I’ve worked with will be
266
00:34:21.360 –> 00:34:28.410
lifelong friends because of some of the stuff that we’ve gone through and their impact on me and perhaps my impact on them.
267
00:34:29.040 –> 00:34:39.360
And, you know, gotta gotta keep keep keep that bigger that bigger personal vision as well. And I mean, obviously, you get it. Bruce you keep giving back even though you’ve
268
00:34:40.740 –> 00:34:44.610
Moved on right you’re still, you’re still giving to the profession.
269
00:34:45.750 –> 00:34:54.150
You know, and trying to help help others that are out there. So I know I for 1am very, very grateful to have you in our profession, so
270
00:35:02.370 –> 00:35:15.900
Alright. So with that, Bruce. Thank you for coming on today. I really appreciated having you on with me to go through and talk about this and any, any final thoughts that you’d like to leave.
271
00:35:24.660 –> 00:35:25.920
I think we lost Bruce
272
00:35:30.330 –> 00:35:32.460
He Jason I just dropped out for a minute.
273
00:35:32.820 –> 00:35:33.120
Okay.
274
00:35:33.240 –> 00:35:34.350
We’re back, you’re back. Okay.
275
00:35:34.830 –> 00:35:36.300
I’m just have a little edit in the middle there.
276
00:35:38.490 –> 00:35:45.960
Alright, so, so, Bruce I really, really appreciate you coming on and talking today i mean the the
277
00:35:46.530 –> 00:36:04.020
The information that you’ve given what you’ve given back to the profession is so great. And, you know, I’m, I’m actually really, really happy and grateful to have you in the profession and and you know having you share what you are sharing with everybody unselfishly. So thank you.
278
00:36:05.610 –> 00:36:11.490
Thank you, Jason and Jane Fonda. I guess describe this is last that once you reach
279
00:36:12.840 –> 00:36:13.980
What are you going to be doing.
280
00:36:15.420 –> 00:36:15.750
That
281
00:36:19.680 –> 00:36:30.030
And familiar, it’s really important to do those things that you’re saying, You’ve got to have a clear path in retirement and and have a clear retire plan and and part of that should be to bring the next generation of
282
00:36:31.290 –> 00:36:34.500
Business people along, including the internal order, guys. Yeah.
283
00:36:35.370 –> 00:36:46.980
Well, and that’s exactly what you’re doing. So, so, yeah, kind of as a you know again reminder for everybody listening. If you haven’t already, go out, grab Bruce’s book new auditors guide to internal auditing.
284
00:36:47.730 –> 00:36:53.250
Really good good resource and be looking for this new team leaders book that he’s working on right now.
285
00:36:53.970 –> 00:36:57.120
Should be out. I’m guessing probably sometime in 2020
286
00:36:57.240 –> 00:36:58.470
Would be the plan for it. Right.
287
00:36:59.910 –> 00:37:02.850
It should be added a fourth quarter 20 2013 kids plan.
288
00:37:03.150 –> 00:37:06.720
Alright, sweet. Look forward to actually seeing that and
289
00:37:07.440 –> 00:37:11.670
Yeah. Again, Bruce. Thanks for coming on with me today and really appreciate it.
290
00:37:13.410 –> 00:37:15.780
Thanks. Jason little Good night. Alright, see ya.
291
00:37:17.040 –> 00:37:17.310
Bye bye.
