Being a guest on radio shows and podcasts are wonderful ways of raising awareness of your product along with building a strong follower base, but sometimes just showing up on a show isn’t as simple as it sounds!

When showing up to a radio show or podcast, or even pitching yourself to a content creator for the opportunity to be a guest, there are things that you should do to prepare yourself beforehand in order to set yourself up for success!

So tune in to today’s episode and start seeing what YOU can do to ensure your own success as a guest!

Listen in at:


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Kathy Gruver: Welcome to another episode of the fire and earth podcast i’m your co host Kathy gruver.

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Jason Mefford: And i’m Jason medford and today we thought it’d be interesting, because I know a lot of people.

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Jason Mefford: And when you talk to a lot of people, they want to be writers and they want to be speakers.

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Kathy Gruver: Right, have you.

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Jason Mefford: Have you noticed that to Kathy and we’re in that area, so we thought it would be interesting to talk about how to get on radio or how to get on podcast shows.

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Jason Mefford: Because a lot of people are like ooh you know I maybe maybe I want to start my own, or maybe I don’t, but I would like to be on radio or podcast shows.

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Jason Mefford: Right to help help give me some credibility show that I know what i’m talking about help draw people to me in my business, so I know you you’ve done way more shows than I have.

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Jason Mefford: So so let’s just kind of get in and talk a little bit about how do you do it, what are some nuts and bolts, the kinds of things, what are some things to be you know aware of right because.

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Jason Mefford: I know, not all of your experiences have been good experiences over the years, so we’ll talk about that and help you kind of avoid some of the.

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Jason Mefford: Health stories that are out there.

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Kathy Gruver: There are, there are some so yeah So when I was doing some of the talks that I did for did for hipaa thoughts live, which is the big hypnotherapy conference.

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Kathy Gruver: For a couple of years, my the talk that I gave them was how to use radio, TV and podcasts to maximize your business.

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Kathy Gruver: So you know it’s a great way to get your name out there it’s a great way to like you said build credibility, I think i’ve been on well over 300 or 350 radio, TV show kind of things.

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Kathy Gruver: The first thing is finding shows that you want to be on and there’s a couple really simple ways to do that there’s something called radio guest list COM there’s podcast guest list COM.

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Kathy Gruver: there’s places that like there’s pod match that match you up with podcasts so there’s certainly freeways online that you can find outlets for shows that you might want to pitch.

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Kathy Gruver: that’s the first step The other thing you can do and i’ve suggested this to people is what shows your friends doing.

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Kathy Gruver: You know, look on Facebook if they’re like oh my God, I was just on this great radio show maybe you should be on that great radio show it’s not.

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Kathy Gruver: Like cheating, I mean you’re not taking work from them, you are then you know going to contact that host and say hey my friend mark was just on your show looks like he had an amazing time this is what I can share, you know there’s so many ways to find opportunities to help promote yourself.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and when we’re talking about finding the right show you know, like you said there’s there’s some different services.

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Jason Mefford: Free or there are some paid ones to just be wary of the paid ones that they actually are doing stuff but there’s there’s plenty of free ones as well, but.

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Jason Mefford: But how does somebody kind of decide well that’s the right show for me right, what are some things that you would be thinking about to try to identify some criteria, maybe that you’re using to say ooh that’s that’s one that I want to be on.

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Kathy Gruver: yeah absolutely and that’s one thing I was gonna say was vet the show.

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Kathy Gruver: Read who the audience is read what the typical topics are you know if you talk about you know animal husbandry and pet sitting.

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Kathy Gruver: You probably don’t want to be on the maximize your bit maximize your stock portfolio talk show you know because there’s there’s some you just it’s just not a fit.

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Kathy Gruver: You know I mean, I do not do Christian content that’s just not what I do and there’s times, where it’s like i’ll start to read about the show.

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Kathy Gruver: And it’ll be this great show and then it’s like you know Christian and faith based content, I am probably not going to be a fit for that, so you know know what your topics are I remember, I remember getting getting an email from a guy who said, I would like to be on your radio show.

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Kathy Gruver: Now, this was years ago you and I didn’t even know each other yeah.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t have a radio show dude I.

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Kathy Gruver: didn’t have a radio show that I was fascinated.

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Kathy Gruver: So, because at the time I was teaching a lot of people how to get on radio, TV, so I wrote back, and I said I don’t have a radio show so also like don’t just randomly email people if they don’t like do your research.

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Kathy Gruver: And I said I don’t have a radio show but i’m really curious, what is your topic.

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Kathy Gruver: Because his pitch simply was, I want to be on your show that’s like walking up to a person in the bar and going, I want to bed you that’s not gonna work that’s just unless it’s 215 and it’s that time of night but it’s probably not gonna work so.

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Jason Mefford: He was there’s a monetary exchange and.

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Jason Mefford: Then you probably okay right.

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Kathy Gruver: All that pay to play.

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Jason Mefford: yeah.

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Kathy Gruver: I was uh.

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Kathy Gruver: So I wrote back and said, like what is your talk, you know I said dude if you want to be on shows like you have to have a better picture than I want to be on your show.

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Kathy Gruver: I said, what is your website, what are your topics, do you have any experience with Radio who are you and he wrote back and he said.

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Kathy Gruver: i’m an author, I have 10 books here’s my website and I went cool.

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Kathy Gruver: I get on his website, it says Amazon page he didn’t even have a website, from what I could tell he never been on a radio, but before and he had 10 books.

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Kathy Gruver: On 10 vastly different topics he had literally one book on pets he had one book on automotive repair he had one book on crafting your perfect home garden he had one book on his favorite recipes he so clearly, he was like this cereal like self.

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Kathy Gruver: Publishing book guy, which is totally fine but i’m like if you don’t have a focus, you know, so if you’re pitching the show.

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Kathy Gruver: Who are you, given the the five Wise hey my name is Kathy gruver i’m a stress and wellness expert I would love to come on your show to talk about five keys to stress reduction my most recent book just came out.

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Kathy Gruver: i’ve been on 1500 radio shows was just recently on Dr phil here’s a sample of what i’ve done i’d love to be on your show.

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Kathy Gruver: If you’re responding to something like the pod match or the radio guest list sometimes there’s a form that they have you fill out.

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Kathy Gruver: Will you help promote this, what is your readership with your social media they’ll they’ll ask you all sorts of things, but it’s like know what you’re offering.

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Kathy Gruver: And don’t expect to get on a show just to push your latest thing if all you talk about is well you know, I have a new book my new book is out, I go get my book, you know.

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Kathy Gruver: Radio shows don’t want that it is not a commercial for you, it is you sharing knowledge and through sharing knowledge at the end typically they will allow you to give.

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Kathy Gruver: Your website and promote whatever it is you’re promoting it’s pretty rare that they want you to just promote something i’ve certainly been on those shows they’re rare and they want content, not a commercial.

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Jason Mefford: yeah or they’re a pay to play.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, there’s plenty of pay to play things if you just want to do your own commercial yeah but you know what you’re talking about here in the pitch right, I mean you’ve heard of things like pitch decks right.

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Jason Mefford: One of the things is very common as a professional speaker is you have what’s called a one sheet right it’s a one page document with a lot of that information that Cathy just went through.

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Jason Mefford: Who are you what have you done if you’ve written certain things if you’ve been on the Dr phil show right that’s good that’s going to get people’s attention like oh Cathy must know what she’s talking about she was on Dr phil right.

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Jason Mefford: It meet because again this person has to know what it is that you are offering Okay, and so again, I mean I get unsolicited stuff like this, all the time we’ve got this podcast i’ve got another podcast myself.

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Jason Mefford: And I get unsolicited stuff all the time, to which I just delete you know because, again, usually it’s as simple as hey I think you’re really cool I want to be on your show.

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Kathy Gruver: And I got one of those this morning, for us, you got yeah Okay, so I get them all the time, too, and again I don’t I don’t even respond back to them because.

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Jason Mefford: I consider that junk junk mail right hey there we go, we got the cat with us today again.

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Jason Mefford: it’s it’s um you know so so again, it has to be in there has to be a reciprocity to it right, I mean you’re you’re helping the person by help by providing some content, but the content has to be relevant to their audience.

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Jason Mefford: Absolutely and and then you know by by you doing that for them like you said, usually there’s the hay and, by the way, check out kathy’s website Kathy Griffin calm right she’s amazing and she’s written, what are you up to 13 books or something like that now.

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Kathy Gruver: Eight but.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, I was just giving you the bed yeah so eight eight different.

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Kathy Gruver: I got so much work to do today.

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Jason Mefford: You got five.

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Books to write to that.

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Kathy Gruver: That on my fingers.

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Jason Mefford: But.

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Jason Mefford: But but that’s where again right because because they need to know what you have to offer or or it’s the same thing you know, on the flip side because i’m i’m not looking.

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Jason Mefford: You know, for people to necessarily be on my podcast because I have my own content or I know who I want on for particular reasons, but I, but I am looking to be a guest on other podcasts.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but again, you know I there’s lots of people that are like Oh, please be on my podcast please be on my podcast I just started, and I have one episode yeah okay if they’re a friend of mine i’ll do that.

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Jason Mefford: yeah but if it’s a random person how am I benefiting.

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Jason Mefford: from it.

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Jason Mefford: yep right, so you have to think about you have to think about how does the other person benefit by you being there.

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Jason Mefford: And how do you benefit.

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Jason Mefford: from it.

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Jason Mefford: And unless there’s a match, you know, a match and topic a match and the content that you’re doing you might as well, not even go down that route.

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Kathy Gruver: Right, it takes time, you have to prep for the show sometimes they want questions in advance, you have to then do the show So do you have an hour to two hours to.

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Kathy Gruver: give to this program and which leads perfectly into please vet the shows.

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Kathy Gruver: I made horrible mistakes, where, when I was starting out I had this number of how many shows, I wanted to get to because it was an impressive number to me, I wanted to hit 100 shows.

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Kathy Gruver: And so, when I was first starting out I took any bloody show that you know that anybody toss it me I didn’t listen to them, I didn’t vet them I didn’t know this is what blog talk radio first started.

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Kathy Gruver: Where any doofus with a phone line could have a radio show, and there were some that were great and there were some that was you know creepy Joe in his basement with one listener, that was his mom and I ended up being a guest on that show.

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Kathy Gruver: So I have, I have to two stories, so a woman contacted me her producer contacted me she had a great press kit or show looked amazing she had a huge listenership they sent you a gift for being on the show.

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Kathy Gruver: I was like great so I get on the show and I get on on it was actually on the phone.

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Kathy Gruver: And she asked me a question she said so tell me a little bit about yourself where did you grow up what how’d you get to where you are, and I know well, I was raised in Pittsburgh Oh, I went to Pittsburgh, and she starts talking and i’m sitting there going.

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Kathy Gruver: Oh Okay, and she spent like three minutes talking about her time in Pittsburgh.

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Kathy Gruver: never got back to my to my question, I never got it to answer so she asked me another question I get about a sentence and she interrupts me and goes off again.

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Kathy Gruver: And i’m thinking, this is a, this is a monologue for her.

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Kathy Gruver: It was the weirdest thing I could not get an answer out so finally she asked me a question and I realized part of my brain is going oh my God i’m getting to answer this question i’m like four sentences in this is so great and I hear people.

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Kathy Gruver: cuz you know when that happens, the bitch muted me.

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Jason Mefford: Are you kidding me.

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Kathy Gruver: A muted me told her story, I was just talking to nobody brought me back in at the end of her story with a laugh, as if I had been listening to her the whole time and then ended the show.

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Kathy Gruver: I don’t like what you’re a crazy person.

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Kathy Gruver: So I get this nice gift in the mail this like handwritten Thank you note for being such an incredible guests i’m like oh my God your associate path.

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Kathy Gruver: What is wrong with you and then like six months later, I get an invite saying you were such a great guest on our show we’d love to have you back, and I was like you know i’m not doing media anymore.

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Jason Mefford: Well, again it’s it’s it’s it’s both people have to benefit from it right and and that was not one of those you didn’t really get anything out of it, because here you are I guess that supposed to be interviewed.

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Jason Mefford: At least 5050.

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Jason Mefford: Talking should be for the guests, if not more.

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Jason Mefford: And and and you and you didn’t have that at all, even though again from the press kit from everything else that you were looking at it seemed like something that was going to be good, so another way that you can kind of stock or do some due diligence is actually listen.

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Jason Mefford: Oh sure to to some of the shows that the people are doing before because that’ll that’ll give you an idea as well Oh yes, what to kind of expect.

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Kathy Gruver: Absolutely yeah and that that that came back to bite me a couple times I had several shows where it was all about them, you know, and when you and I have a guest on it’s not about us.

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Kathy Gruver: We might toss it a thought or personal thing that relates to that, but it’s about the guest and i’ve been on several shows where.

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Kathy Gruver: You know the host will be like you know i’ve told the story before you all heard it, but let me tell it again and they’ll do this 15 minute story where i’m sitting there going Jesus, I can go knit a sweater, what are we doing here, you know.

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Kathy Gruver: The other the other, the other hilarious and I told my boyfriend this one last night.

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Kathy Gruver: I this was at a point where I wasn’t vetting shows, but I got asked to be on this, it was a pretty big show.

00:13:35.430 –> 00:13:45.030
Kathy Gruver: It was an FM station, it was two guys it had really good ratings and it was an actual like big radio show it wasn’t online, it was a big actual terrestrial radio show.

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Kathy Gruver: And they had me call in and they said, Colin five minutes early you will hear the show as it’s going on but you’ll be muted will bring you in when it’s your time and I said great.

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Kathy Gruver: So warning for sensitive people i’m going to say some dirty words, so I get on the show, and this is what I hear this woman says, and some people like to put Ben gay on the dildo before they put it in their ass.

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Kathy Gruver: And I sit there going up a.

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Jason Mefford: They call into the wrong number.

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Kathy Gruver: Ah, a one What do you do.

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Kathy Gruver: Because there was a huge part of me that went just hang up just hang up you don’t want to be on the show with these guys and it was very shocked jockey kind of thing.

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Kathy Gruver: And then there’s part of me that’s like you know what what the hell.

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Kathy Gruver: I get to swear I get to do this sort of like outrageous show, as opposed to the ones I hadn’t been doing, which is so Kathy tell me about your PhD this was like.

00:14:43.020 –> 00:14:54.720
Kathy Gruver: dildos and Ben gay so i’m like okay let’s let’s do this and they finally bring me on it turns out that the woman that they had on previously as a guest had been a porn star, who was now a sex therapist so.

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Kathy Gruver: I kind of get it, but still, it was raw I mean you think we’re wrong unscripted this was outrageous, so the guy goes hey we’ve got the group we’re so excited to have you how are you I said i’m doing great.

00:15:05.700 –> 00:15:11.070
Kathy Gruver: I said, I think I just learned a lot from your last show which made them laugh, and he goes so you seem to like to talk about shit a lot.

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Kathy Gruver: And I went.

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Kathy Gruver: I guess we’re going there and I spent the entire show talking about bowel health.

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Kathy Gruver: seriously in kind of like a raw twisted way, but we talked about fiber we talked about sleep we ended up.

00:15:24.120 –> 00:15:31.290
Kathy Gruver: Having this like very informative nature apathy conversation, but it started with so you like to talk about shed a lot.

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Kathy Gruver: And it ended up being an unfortunately it was like the highest rank shit like this thing was shared out everywhere, like I can’t get a Google alert after Google alert on like seriously.

00:15:40.980 –> 00:15:47.850
Kathy Gruver: This is the show everyone’s going to hear you know so do your due diligence figure, you know or and, if nothing else you end up with some funny stories.

00:15:48.060 –> 00:15:54.120
Kathy Gruver: But I mean I have just so many radio shows that ended up being either funny or a nightmare or the the host was awful.

00:15:54.540 –> 00:16:00.420
Kathy Gruver: Yes, you want to be on shows you also want to be on the right show don’t make the same mistake, I did I wasted hours.

00:16:00.750 –> 00:16:08.940
Kathy Gruver: Doing shows that were really awful that didn’t benefit me that didn’t benefit the listeners if they had any you know so yeah we want to build that resume.

00:16:09.510 –> 00:16:17.160
Kathy Gruver: Also here’s, the last thing i’ll say on this if you’ve never done a show if you’ve never been a guest before, please do not contact the biggest show in the country first.

00:16:17.790 –> 00:16:23.370
Kathy Gruver: Please know what you’re doing have the sky i’ve had people do that I want to get on Dr phil i’ve never done this before, but I want to be on.

00:16:24.390 –> 00:16:34.470
Kathy Gruver: Start small do a couple small shows do a couple you know local radio shows local am podcasts that kind of thing before you jump in and try to get on and on npr.

00:16:34.710 –> 00:16:42.030
Kathy Gruver: You know just know your own skill set know who you are what you’re offering and then and then find the shows listen to them first and then work hard at it.

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Jason Mefford: Well, the one thing to as you were talking that I was going to bring up to is you know if you’re going to be a guest on it as well right is is kind of know what the commitment is going into it.

00:16:54.750 –> 00:17:02.520
Jason Mefford: Because, because I have certain people and it’s like you know what if I, if I can just show up do the interview and that’s it.

00:17:02.610 –> 00:17:10.230
Jason Mefford: yep that’s one thing, but sometimes i’ll get people you know, especially some companies because i’ll do a lot of webinars with.

00:17:10.770 –> 00:17:14.460
Jason Mefford: Other companies right i’ll be the guest on their webinar let’s say.

00:17:15.240 –> 00:17:23.610
Jason Mefford: And there’s there’s I know there’s certain companies or certain kinds of companies, and when I hear things like Oh well, we have to have a pre show.

00:17:24.090 –> 00:17:39.240
Jason Mefford: A pre call to talk about the outline, and then we have to have a pre pre call for this, and then we need to have a tech check and it’s like I start adding it up and it’s like i’m going to spend eight hours to do a one hour deal yep i’m not doing that for free.

00:17:39.570 –> 00:17:42.960
Jason Mefford: Right so so know what you’re getting into.

00:17:43.380 –> 00:17:50.970
Jason Mefford: And if there are a bunch of hoops if there is a bunch of stuff like that that has to be done just know and then decide do I want to do that or.

00:17:50.970 –> 00:17:52.230
Kathy Gruver: Do I not yeah.

00:17:52.290 –> 00:18:03.210
Jason Mefford: Right, because I know a lot of times when I reach out to people from my other podcasts are like well, what does this entail i’m like we show up, we talked for a few minutes before I hit record and we’re done.

00:18:03.330 –> 00:18:19.860
Jason Mefford: You know that’s that’s all it is there’s there’s no pre planning there’s no pre questions there’s no, you know any of this stuff because in for me it’s not just a waste of time, but I don’t like to be so scripted yeah okay.

00:18:20.220 –> 00:18:22.950
Jason Mefford: And I actually just had a guest on WHO.

00:18:27.810 –> 00:18:35.250
Jason Mefford: i’m not I don’t want to tell gender or anything but this person was used to everything being.

00:18:36.540 –> 00:18:44.100
Jason Mefford: In fact i’ve watched this person on stage do interviews reading the teleprompter.

00:18:44.280 –> 00:18:44.940
Kathy Gruver: Oh no.

00:18:45.120 –> 00:18:55.290
Jason Mefford: Okay, so he was you know what was supposed to be an interview was not really an interview was all pre scripted question very clunky.

00:18:55.950 –> 00:18:57.000
Jason Mefford: So I could tell as we were.

00:18:57.000 –> 00:19:00.780
Jason Mefford: just having a conversation this person was very uncomfortable.

00:19:01.500 –> 00:19:13.920
Jason Mefford: right because that’s not what they’re used to well that’s the way I roll that’s the way you roll that’s why we get this way here right so so again determine the kind of person, you are if you’re the kind of person.

00:19:14.460 –> 00:19:21.510
Jason Mefford: That wants it to be very scripted and and that way then look for shows look for hosts.

00:19:22.110 –> 00:19:31.140
Jason Mefford: That are that way yeah if you want it to be conversational free flow hey we don’t know where we’re going to go, I mean it it’s like that, with a lot of our guests, we.

00:19:31.440 –> 00:19:40.710
Jason Mefford: We have an idea of where we think we’re going to go, but then we start talking and who knows where we end up going if that freaks me out because there’s not enough like.

00:19:41.100 –> 00:19:45.030
Jason Mefford: structure structure around it then don’t do those kind of shows find the.

00:19:45.030 –> 00:19:46.920
Jason Mefford: ones that work for your personality as well.

00:19:47.040 –> 00:19:55.020
Kathy Gruver: yeah absolutely and and that that is such a great point, and you know I did I had one woman she had a local like cable access show, but I knew her.

00:19:55.320 –> 00:20:11.340
Kathy Gruver: I you know I had talked to people have been on our show, and you know by this point, I had done major network stuff this you know I know what i’m doing, and she says okay so i’m going to send you 20 questions and I went okay great she goes so when can we meet to go over your answers.

00:20:12.720 –> 00:20:13.740
Jason Mefford: ain’t gonna happen honey.

00:20:14.040 –> 00:20:14.910
Kathy Gruver: And I said what.

00:20:16.080 –> 00:20:21.900
Kathy Gruver: And she said, I need you to write down the answers to the questions now, these are long frickin answers like i’m not typing out.

00:20:22.200 –> 00:20:28.770
Kathy Gruver: My background, I will verbally tell you my background and she made me get on the phone with her and we spent an hour.

00:20:29.730 –> 00:20:34.890
Kathy Gruver: going over what my answer would be and I said I don’t remember what her name i’ll call her Susan and like Susan.

00:20:35.460 –> 00:20:43.680
Kathy Gruver: I know how to tell you my story like I don’t need to script this out, I said, because you know what’s going to happen when we’re doing the interview anyway, none of this is going to get said.

00:20:44.310 –> 00:20:50.130
Kathy Gruver: No, no, I stick to my questions and Sure enough, we spent an hour hour and a half doing this, I was furious I had already committed to it.

00:20:50.790 –> 00:20:59.580
Kathy Gruver: And then we get in the studio she asked me to have the questions and everything else is free forum and i’m like oh my God I just wasted so much fucking time I was so angry with her about this.

00:21:00.210 –> 00:21:04.860
Kathy Gruver: I agreed to it, you know and just the same way when we had the shock jock guy with a dildo you know.

00:21:05.520 –> 00:21:10.680
Kathy Gruver: I was tempted to hang up but they could see that I was already online I had already committed to it and I just sort of.

00:21:11.310 –> 00:21:18.540
Kathy Gruver: switched egos dates and went Okay, I guess we’re playing today, so you know know what your boundaries are know what you want to do what is the message that you want to get out.

00:21:19.200 –> 00:21:35.100
Kathy Gruver: find those shows pitch them well and understand it’s not a commercial and you are the only one that can decide if you want to give them the 15 bucks for their show, I refuse to be to pay to be on someone’s show whether it’s $5 $10 people have said, we charge $300 to be on our show no.

00:21:36.210 –> 00:21:44.130
Kathy Gruver: No, I mean you can i’m not paying it, you know, the first radio show I did I paid to be on a series of them I also got to write articles for a magazine.

00:21:44.430 –> 00:21:51.780
Kathy Gruver: Because I had never done anything before that worked for me and that time I would not do that now, so you you’re the only one that knows if that’s going to be a thing for you.

00:21:53.580 –> 00:22:03.240
Jason Mefford: Alright, so I think we’ve covered some good stuff today, so you know again if that’s something that you’re if you’re interested in in starting to get on you know radio shows podcast via podcast guests.

00:22:04.350 –> 00:22:10.770
Jason Mefford: Some great points right make sure that you’re finding the right shows you’re reading you’re reading the host you’re reading the audience.

00:22:11.280 –> 00:22:17.340
Jason Mefford: You know what you’re getting into in they just think about whether this is something that actually works for you or not.

00:22:17.850 –> 00:22:32.940
Jason Mefford: And again everybody’s going to be different you’re going to be gravitated towards certain kinds of shows or certain certain hosts and that’s fine we at all and and and again, you know it’s just like dating or anything else you’re going to get told no okay so.

00:22:32.970 –> 00:22:46.140
Jason Mefford: So so just realize that you know you might have to ask 100 times you know before you get that, yes, but if you’re committed and seriously want to do this, then you just got to put yourself out there and go for it.

00:22:46.980 –> 00:22:48.450
Kathy Gruver: Absolutely and hide the bad guy.

00:22:48.960 –> 00:22:49.830
Jason Mefford: can hide the Ben came.

00:22:52.650 –> 00:22:55.170
Jason Mefford: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:22:55.680 –> 00:23:09.780
Jason Mefford: cool if we can help you in any way, let us know I do I have tips, I have a whole sheet on like how to do the interview things to watch out for for the interview tips and tricks and you know all this stuff for both in person and on shows like online or on the phone.

00:23:09.960 –> 00:23:15.420
Kathy Gruver: So if you want that I can absolutely get it to you and i’m Kathy Gruber, I can be reached at Kathy Gruber calm.

00:23:15.780 –> 00:23:25.050
Jason Mefford: And i’m Jason method, I can be reached at Jason method calm so have a great rest of your week and we’ll see you on the next episode of the fire and earth podcast see ya.

00:23:25.410 –> 00:23:25.860

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