I’m talking with my friend Bruce Turner again about his recent book “Team Leader’s Guide to Internal Audit Leadership” in this #jammingwithjason #internalauditpodcast.

The role of #internalaudit team leaders is being reshaped to accommodate the recognition of Chief Audit Executives (CAEs) as trusted advisors within the C-suite. This requires team leaders to transition to a higher level by providing practical, meaningful ideas to optimize internal audit’s value proposition through attuned, balanced, and credible day-to-day audit engagement activities.

His book provides fresh, timely, and higher-level insights on the expanding role of team leaders, and the need for them to deliver internal auditing services on a day-to-day basis that optimize the value proposition for the benefit of internal audit’s stakeholders.

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

Bruce Turner, has more than 40 years of practitioner and leadership experience in internal auditing, including being the Chief Audit Executive at several organizations. He has recruited dozens of new auditors into internal audit roles throughout his career and watched proudly as their careers blossomed.

You can find his book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088YTMHD6/


00:00:02.250 –> 00:00:12.870
Jason Mefford: Well hey everybody, today I have a very special treat. I have my friend Bruce Turner back with me. Bruce is my mate, all the way from down under so Bruce. Welcome back. How you doing,

00:00:13.349 –> 00:00:15.660
Bruce Turner: Tonight Jason getting very well thank you very well indeed.

00:00:15.960 –> 00:00:17.279
Jason Mefford: Very well indeed. I know it’s

00:00:18.390 –> 00:00:30.930
Jason Mefford: I can’t remember how much we joke before about it because my wife’s Australian too. And so, you know, we’ve been emailing back and forth a little bit and and so it just kind of, I don’t know all the different ology jokes like it. Throw out there, but we won’t

00:00:32.280 –> 00:00:43.200
Jason Mefford: But it’s, it’s, yeah. It’s, I have a special place in my heart for Australia for a lot of reasons I’ve been pulled their business wise even long before I met my wife, but

00:00:43.920 –> 00:00:49.860
Jason Mefford: Some of my best friends are Australians as well. And interestingly enough, when I was traveling so much

00:00:50.550 –> 00:01:02.160
Jason Mefford: Almost. You know, I, I’d stand out because I like to go out and take a little walk or stand out in front of the hotel and almost every time it didn’t matter where I was at in the world. Guess who had run into an Australian tour.

00:01:03.960 –> 00:01:05.040
So, it’s amazing.

00:01:06.060 –> 00:01:12.630
Jason Mefford: Oh yeah, oh yeah so well I know I was joking with you before, because, you know, maybe we’ll give you

00:01:13.020 –> 00:01:19.680
Jason Mefford: Just a little, little background on yourself. But people probably already know who you are because you’ve had a very, very distinguished career.

00:01:20.490 –> 00:01:31.320
Jason Mefford: But I was joking with you that i think i think you’re busier in retirement and you work when you’re actively actively employed because you’ve been cranking out the books.

00:01:31.800 –> 00:01:36.870
Jason Mefford: And continuing to do a lot of work and now that’s kind of what we want to talk a little bit about today, but

00:01:37.380 –> 00:01:47.820
Jason Mefford: For people that don’t know you already maybe just kind of a brief, brief background on yourself, then let’s kind of jump in because I think we wanted to talk about one of the books, and particularly the team leaders guide today.

00:01:48.660 –> 00:01:58.500
Bruce Turner: It sounds good. So for those who don’t know me I retired eight years ago as the chief audit executive at the Australian tax office, one of the largest

00:01:59.280 –> 00:02:11.520
Bruce Turner: Auto shops in the southern hemisphere proud of that ideal trip ordered executive roles in in organizations in energy and RO eyes and, you know, had a 30 year career in

00:02:12.090 –> 00:02:21.060
Bruce Turner: Banking before that so commercial banking merchant banking and central banking. So, and of course through that journey you you learn lots of different things and

00:02:21.510 –> 00:02:31.080
Bruce Turner: You know in in retirement. I’m really keen to to make sure that I can share some of those ideas and insights that I gained over the very valuable experience again.

00:02:32.010 –> 00:02:39.780
Jason Mefford: Well yeah cuz you have had some amazing experience. I mean, I know one of the books you say you’re talking about you know that you’re working on, you know,

00:02:40.320 –> 00:02:47.340
Jason Mefford: Raising from the mail room to the boardroom AND YOU’VE LITERALLY done that. Right. I mean, you started your career in the mail room and

00:02:47.700 –> 00:02:55.530
Jason Mefford: moved all the way up to be an executive and now I think you’re still serving on several boards of directors as well. I think even, even in retirement. Right.

00:02:55.950 –> 00:03:05.790
Bruce Turner: Yes. So now it’s pretty much a balance. I’ve Roland and I sit on several audit committees and share a number of those and also board so very interested in that because

00:03:06.570 –> 00:03:20.100
Bruce Turner: It’s not a full time gig, but you still influence organizations in their journey. And one of the things I I’m keen to do is make the world a better place. So, you know, the sort of tasks I take on link very nicely in it.

00:03:21.120 –> 00:03:25.740
Jason Mefford: Well, and that is, you know, like you said, I mean, eight years in retirement, and what have you been doing

00:03:26.250 –> 00:03:35.100
Jason Mefford: Trying to give back to the profession help mold you know people give give some insights and some of the learnings that you had to try to make this world a better place.

00:03:35.520 –> 00:03:47.610
Jason Mefford: It’s one of the reasons why I like you, so much. I think we’re, we’re, like, totally in line on this, you know, so so yeah let’s. Well, you know, let’s just kind of jumping, because I know when we, when we first talked, we, we thought we’d

00:03:48.000 –> 00:03:56.040
Jason Mefford: We kind of go through and talk a little bit about the team. Team Leaders guide, because that’s a book that’s out it’s published people can actually get it now.

00:03:57.150 –> 00:04:06.210
Jason Mefford: It kind of fits in this this little niche. That’s kind of needed there. So maybe let’s let’s just kind of jump into that a little bit because

00:04:06.690 –> 00:04:21.420
Jason Mefford: I know at least when I was coming up in my career, you get promoted and now you’re a manager or a senior, but it usually doesn’t come with any management training. It’s like, here you go. Right, so

00:04:23.520 –> 00:04:30.120
Bruce Turner: And of course, when I was coming through the ranks the, the Bible for internal auditors was Soyuz internal auditing.

00:04:31.200 –> 00:04:36.330
Bruce Turner: That both you and I had the privilege and an honor of contributing to the seventh edition, which is at the now.

00:04:36.870 –> 00:04:43.200
Bruce Turner: And the seventh edition of Soyuz is an excellent publication and it’s very much focused on the strategic level so

00:04:43.800 –> 00:04:50.520
Bruce Turner: Arms. The chief audit executive with a lot of good information. It also is very useful for the C suite.

00:04:51.060 –> 00:05:02.430
Bruce Turner: And what I thought was that there is a an ish below that, which is a team leaders and they can have a lot of different titles, you know, can be senior manager, it can be audit manager, it can be ordered director, it can be

00:05:03.180 –> 00:05:17.220
Bruce Turner: Senior supervisor, whatever the title is. And there’s a lot of people who sit at that wrong, just below the chief audit executive or enlarge audit for audit shops two runs below the chief audit executive who need to be counted for as well.

00:05:18.330 –> 00:05:29.070
Bruce Turner: These days, the chief audit executive is expected to see the in the C suite and around the table layer and contribute at a more strategic level, which I think it’s a fantastic

00:05:29.250 –> 00:05:33.330
Bruce Turner: Opportunity for internal auditor to make a bigger difference to organizations.

00:05:34.440 –> 00:05:39.690
Bruce Turner: What that means is that the team leaders have to do a lot of heavy lifting. Now,

00:05:41.010 –> 00:05:46.440
Bruce Turner: Much more involved in stakeout held a relationship management, much more involved in the development of your team.

00:05:47.310 –> 00:05:56.460
Bruce Turner: And picking up a larger part of the responsibility for the planning of words, the execution of audits and the best tools and techniques to use

00:05:56.850 –> 00:06:08.340
Bruce Turner: And through the reporting and medical reporting and then through the follow up or recommendations and want to talk about reporting and communicating with clients. It’s much broader than just issuing an audit report.

00:06:09.360 –> 00:06:19.740
Bruce Turner: Have the opportunity. These days to get in and actually do some things on site for that chick or an executive might have done in the past, you know, taking half an hour or an hour out of the

00:06:21.060 –> 00:06:30.480
Bruce Turner: Field work to actually present to the staff and talk to them about some area we’ve got expertise, whether it’s governance risk management compliance assurance activities, whatever.

00:06:30.900 –> 00:06:43.530
Bruce Turner: These people love that sort of opportunity and it helps to build the credibility of internal audit, as well as the team later. So the book deals, you know, a whole wide range of things that help the team later change the mindset.

00:06:44.250 –> 00:06:52.710
Bruce Turner: From being one of the team to actually leading the team and doing a whole bunch of things that they wouldn’t have traditionally done for the stakeholders.

00:06:54.270 –> 00:07:00.150
Jason Mefford: Excuse me. Well, yeah, like you said, especially as in some organizations, it’s not true for everybody, but in

00:07:00.720 –> 00:07:06.540
Jason Mefford: Like you said, in some of the bigger organizations, the CEO is elevated up to that C suite level.

00:07:07.200 –> 00:07:16.440
Jason Mefford: And and a lot of times is taking on other responsibilities. Right, so like I had risk management ethics and compliance. In addition to internal audit.

00:07:16.980 –> 00:07:28.290
Jason Mefford: Which means you know I effectively have kind of like three people underneath me now that are responsible for each of those different areas. So I don’t have as much time.

00:07:28.770 –> 00:07:40.320
Jason Mefford: You know to do, effectively what some of these next level down folks are doing now. They’re some of them are effectively acting as a CAE but without the title. Right.

00:07:40.800 –> 00:07:54.990
Bruce Turner: Very true. Jason. Very true. And when I ran the internal audit function for state rail some years ago. You know, I had responsibility for major investigations corruption prevention as well as internal audit.

00:07:55.320 –> 00:07:57.450
Bruce Turner: Now headed to about 3035 people

00:07:58.350 –> 00:08:07.470
Bruce Turner: And most of those were in the Internal Audit area and so whilst I had you know 70 or 80% of my staff in the Internal Audit area. I spent about 20% of my time there.

00:08:07.860 –> 00:08:14.130
Bruce Turner: And because major investigations and corruption prevention was just a significant part of the wrong.

00:08:15.900 –> 00:08:17.970
Jason Mefford: Yeah, it takes on a lot more a lot more of an effort

00:08:18.840 –> 00:08:32.700
Jason Mefford: So, you know, like you said, I mean, some of the, some of these other responsibilities now are following are kind of trickling down into the organization more about stakeholder management team development, you know, doing more of the reporting and communicating itself.

00:08:33.180 –> 00:08:45.420
Jason Mefford: So what are, what are some of the, you know, kind of skills or things that now these team leaders need some of the kind of the guidance and tips to kind of give them because

00:08:46.050 –> 00:08:58.350
Jason Mefford: Like I can only imagine, you know, again, I’m just kind of going from my career, but I usually. It was like I got thrown in the deep end of the pool. You know, you get promoted and it’s like, here you go. It’s like learn how to swim.

00:08:59.550 –> 00:09:14.460
Jason Mefford: You know, feel like probably some of the people might feel that way too. Right. So, are there some specific areas, maybe that they should kind of focus in on or, you know, how did they kind of figure out what it is. So they don’t drown.

00:09:16.050 –> 00:09:24.090
Bruce Turner: Very good question. And so one of the things that I did with the book was confer with people that I knew across the world, and I’ve got

00:09:24.600 –> 00:09:32.220
Bruce Turner: input from 40 odd people and and what I’ve been up to do is blend some of those into the stories. So we’ve got a whole bunch of stories throughout the book.

00:09:32.940 –> 00:09:42.060
Bruce Turner: As well as the technical stuff the technical stuff which links into standards and the sorts of things that into a lot of professional should understand and should issue.

00:09:43.170 –> 00:09:44.520
Bruce Turner: And one of the real

00:09:45.570 –> 00:09:52.230
Bruce Turner: Interesting things that came out of it was that there’s a whole bunch of myths out there. So each of the chapters in the book.

00:09:52.890 –> 00:10:00.840
Bruce Turner: Includes a couple of myths and I remember during my time at the Reserve Bank of Australia, there was this meat there that

00:10:01.530 –> 00:10:09.030
Bruce Turner: You know, I don’t need to do my best when I’m writing an order report because the boss is going to change it anyway. And I thought what I don’t want to change reports.

00:10:09.600 –> 00:10:18.450
Bruce Turner: I actually want to get a report sit down with a cup of coffee read through it so on and off an issue it. And so there are myths like that that have included in the book.

00:10:19.620 –> 00:10:32.640
Bruce Turner: And I got this from some of these people from across the world. You know one of them as well as with it auditors, for example here where it auditors were different. We didn’t have to follow the standards.

00:10:34.200 –> 00:10:38.490
Bruce Turner: And we don’t have to ride in non technical terms. Hang on. You do.

00:10:38.910 –> 00:10:40.320
Bruce Turner: Do you have

00:10:40.590 –> 00:10:47.130
Bruce Turner: Three Osaka, you have it. And so there are standards. They’re very similar to the standards. So you still need to follow standards.

00:10:47.460 –> 00:10:56.010
Bruce Turner: And actually, you got to write for the audience. So the myth that you’re different. Because sure it doesn’t hold water in terms of adding value to the client.

00:10:56.520 –> 00:11:05.760
Bruce Turner: And another myth that are included and is that there are a lot of people who think will on our team leader. I’m going to continue doing what I what I’ve been doing

00:11:06.690 –> 00:11:14.400
Bruce Turner: Nothing changes or I’m sorry, there’s a hell of a lot that does change in terms of what you should be doing and the expectations that people have of you.

00:11:15.210 –> 00:11:28.020
Bruce Turner: You know, you need to get in to the room with executives and you’ve got to earn that gravitas. You’ve got to make a difference from day one. So there’s a whole bunch of myths that are out there. And we actually try to break those myths down

00:11:29.250 –> 00:11:39.750
Bruce Turner: One way of answering your question. So one of the key things that people moving into a team leader role or who have been there for a while, need to understand is that the IQ will get you so far.

00:11:40.080 –> 00:11:40.530
Jason Mefford: And

00:11:40.680 –> 00:11:43.230
Bruce Turner: Then need to apply your business acumen.

00:11:44.460 –> 00:11:56.970
Bruce Turner: You need to understand how you would run the business. If you are the boss. You then need to make sure that your team comes along for the ride and understands the to add value, you really need to

00:11:58.020 –> 00:12:08.640
Bruce Turner: Adopt that is the segment mindset and the other element that comes in very clearly is the emotional quotient the EQ. So it’s really important for people to understand

00:12:09.540 –> 00:12:21.540
Bruce Turner: And develop an appropriate level of EQ wherever they can because at the end of the day, it’s the soft skills that you can to leverage to make a difference to the business and to actually lead into the thing

00:12:22.530 –> 00:12:32.970
Jason Mefford: Well, thank you for saying that Bruce I didn’t even pay you to do that. But it’s like that is one of the things that I have been harping on over and over again for years now.

00:12:33.390 –> 00:12:37.530
Jason Mefford: And, you know, like you said your IQ only gets just so far.

00:12:38.220 –> 00:12:55.470
Jason Mefford: Right, then it’s going to be your business acumen and your EQ, that actually gets you to where you need to go and that’s that is a big shift. And I think, you know, I think, in my opinion, it’s, it’s getting further and further down in the organization or you have to do that right it’s

00:12:55.740 –> 00:12:58.740
Jason Mefford: Live 50 years ago maybe only the CIA. He needed

00:12:58.800 –> 00:13:06.030
Jason Mefford: To do that, but now I would say at least at manager level, if not even down to the

00:13:06.030 –> 00:13:08.730
Jason Mefford: Senior role, you need to start

00:13:08.730 –> 00:13:11.280
Jason Mefford: Developing some of this EQ and business document.

00:13:12.660 –> 00:13:29.640
Jason Mefford: Because if you’re if you don’t really understand what your business does you’re always going to have difficulty communicating with people, your recommendations aren’t going to be relevant. How are you really going to find the right risks, right, unless you actually understand the business.

00:13:31.470 –> 00:13:31.860
Jason Mefford: Yeah.

00:13:32.280 –> 00:13:45.120
Bruce Turner: I remember, you know, one of the examples I including there is in an organization that was changing quite considerably and they had a registry business. And that is, you know, bonds and stocks and so forth and

00:13:45.750 –> 00:14:01.350
Bruce Turner: You know, the internal auditors got got in and, you know, did the assessment of the risks and the controls and identified a whole range of cats computer assisted or techniques that they could utilize and ended up coming up with a Rolls Royce designed internal audit program.

00:14:02.880 –> 00:14:15.390
Bruce Turner: And then the penny dropped when the business will will actually the cost of the order is going to be greater than the contribution of the profit that we’re getting from this business, and then the penny dropped, of course, that, you know, we kind of need to pull them pull that back.

00:14:16.950 –> 00:14:25.080
Bruce Turner: And understand, you know, the business a little bit better because he was going through a transformation, you know, governments were issuing list bonds and stocks.

00:14:25.800 –> 00:14:41.310
Bruce Turner: Will bring budgets back into balance there was going to be less activity in the future and therefore the order came up with a fantastic what a program, but it was never going to work because it was never going to add value in a producer a reasonable cost.

00:14:42.300 –> 00:14:45.960
Jason Mefford: Well, and I think that’s, that’s where again some of that business acumen comes in.

00:14:46.170 –> 00:14:54.480
Jason Mefford: Right, because it’s, I don’t know how many times I’ve seen somebody in it’s easier now for me looking from the outside, that when you’re in it.

00:14:55.050 –> 00:14:57.720
Jason Mefford: Seriously, right. It’s always easier that way. So we’ll, we’ll

00:14:58.020 –> 00:14:59.910
Jason Mefford: Give some of that but but it’s

00:15:01.170 –> 00:15:02.700
Jason Mefford: It’s always kind of amazed me

00:15:03.780 –> 00:15:13.620
Jason Mefford: How many times I’ve seen people make recommendations or want to increase the internal controls in certain areas.

00:15:14.430 –> 00:15:29.670
Jason Mefford: And if all they had done was a Back of the Napkin kind of analysis, you know, again, it’s like why would I spend $200,000 to mitigate a $50,000 risk that doesn’t make business sense

00:15:30.120 –> 00:15:40.380
Jason Mefford: Right. But a lot of times is auditors for, like, but it’s best practice, it’s a good control. It’s like, but you’re just lost 150 grand by doing that.

00:15:41.160 –> 00:15:50.250
Bruce Turner: And one of the things that we also talk about in the book is the opportunity for auditors to focus on optimizing controls.

00:15:50.580 –> 00:15:59.670
Bruce Turner: And one example of that is, what can we as auditors do to reduce the red tape, so two angles. One is the red tape that’s imposed within the business.

00:16:00.810 –> 00:16:07.770
Bruce Turner: Because it’s always been done that way. And secondly, the red tape that we think has been imposed by government or regulators.

00:16:08.580 –> 00:16:17.760
Bruce Turner: And what can we do to actually stream on it to me what their requirements actually are. And I’ve actually included a case study in there where one guy said, well,

00:16:18.450 –> 00:16:34.860
Bruce Turner: This, the amount of time and effort that was going into producing the compliance report for the regulator was just incredibly too much. So he actually spoke to the regulators and civil what you actually need. And I said, Well, three courses stuff he’s giving us with a new

00:16:36.570 –> 00:16:44.310
Bruce Turner: This is really focusing on and he said, aha, and a streamline the process. The other thing that’s coming through with

00:16:44.970 –> 00:16:53.580
Bruce Turner: The covert 19 global pandemic at the moment is that governments are actually starting to reduce red tape and there’s lots of things that

00:16:54.180 –> 00:16:59.220
Bruce Turner: Were mandated previously that they’ve softened because they need to get the country’s their economies working again.

00:16:59.640 –> 00:17:11.640
Bruce Turner: And I think that provides the opportunity for auditors to actually look at their own organizations and say, What can we do to change this one of the examples I use is an organization, an energy company. I was in and

00:17:12.810 –> 00:17:23.130
Bruce Turner: I was told I had to do something. And I’ve only been here a short while but it does make sense. Boy, why do we need to do that. And I said, it’s an audit requirement. That’s interesting.

00:17:24.240 –> 00:17:27.510
Bruce Turner: What and then again make sense. You don’t need to do that anymore.

00:17:29.520 –> 00:17:39.330
Bruce Turner: So I think we need lots of opportunities here for internal order to optimize controls, rather than to strengthen controls. We’ve got to change that mindset. I think the team leaders have got a really important role to play in it.

00:17:40.860 –> 00:17:49.830
Jason Mefford: Well, they do. And I think that’s, you know, some little examples of that are ways to that we can show you know our value to the organization.

00:17:50.400 –> 00:17:58.380
Jason Mefford: And that can come, you know, in a lot of different ways when things change. Right. Sometimes. Sometimes people don’t change. I mean, I remember

00:17:59.040 –> 00:18:05.460
Jason Mefford: You know, long time ago we autism. One of the minds that we had. We had a mining division. It’s one of the divisions and we went out there.

00:18:06.060 –> 00:18:12.450
Jason Mefford: And you know, we were looking at AP and and kind of going through and one of the staff, you know, kind of

00:18:13.050 –> 00:18:17.040
Jason Mefford: outlined the process. Right. And they brought it back to me and I’m like, why are they doing it this way.

00:18:17.610 –> 00:18:27.420
Jason Mefford: Like, well that’s what they said they’re doing, you know, and so I’m I go back, you know, to the AP manager. And I’m like, why, why are you doing the manual three way match.

00:18:27.810 –> 00:18:37.770
Jason Mefford: And she’s like, well, that’s our policy. That’s the way we’ve always done it. I said, Did you not realize we just spent $25 million on this new era P program that does it automatically

00:18:40.320 –> 00:18:50.280
Jason Mefford: Other right so it’s like there’s lots of little things like that that kind of over the years we’ve themselves into organizations and almost become

00:18:50.880 –> 00:19:04.320
Jason Mefford: No longer questioned right that that again being from the outside as auditors, we can hopefully question some of those things and maybe find some ways to optimize controls.

00:19:04.920 –> 00:19:18.990
Jason Mefford: You know, instead of trying to add additional controls how happy. Do you think that manager would be as if we can say. And you know what, by the way, you don’t need to do these five things and that’s going to save your team 5000 hours a year.

00:19:20.250 –> 00:19:25.740
Jason Mefford: Right. Just, just like that regulator report right when the guy figured out three quarters. You don’t have to do is like

00:19:28.860 –> 00:19:31.530
Bruce Turner: It reminds me when you talk about accounts payable.

00:19:32.610 –> 00:19:36.990
Bruce Turner: I went to one organization to take over as head of the corporate governance area and

00:19:37.650 –> 00:19:43.680
Bruce Turner: Risk Management, that kind of stuff. And it ultimately morphed into they wanted me to take over the internal audit function, which I did.

00:19:44.250 –> 00:20:03.570
Bruce Turner: And I’m trying to work out health and get more time to do two more meaty audience, rather than just the routine Financial Control Ordinance which had been a tradition, the program. And I said why we auditing accounts payable twice a year and this year is control issues. Oh, that’s not

00:20:04.830 –> 00:20:13.560
Bruce Turner: Every time and then that that my predecessor said, but the Auditor General, which is the Supreme Audit institution.

00:20:14.520 –> 00:20:27.450
Bruce Turner: Requires us to do that. I said, Isn’t that funny. I’ve just come from another organization that’s audited by the Auditor General and we do accounts payable audits every two to three years. So said

00:20:27.960 –> 00:20:34.320
Bruce Turner: In a minute so ring up the the audit lead at the auditor general’s office and they said, now we don’t actually need that.

00:20:35.400 –> 00:20:38.010
Bruce Turner: We’ve been hearing your predecessor, but

00:20:38.760 –> 00:20:55.170
Bruce Turner: He wanted done so I then suddenly had this packet dies, like an invest in really meaningful audience. So sometimes you’re questioning ourselves in in their habits, we get into within internal audit as well. And that’s where a team leader can can play an important role.

00:20:56.550 –> 00:21:03.630
Jason Mefford: Well, yeah. Because just approaching it from a different way actually doing some questioning it. Because like you said, it’s funny that

00:21:04.830 –> 00:21:15.180
Jason Mefford: You know, just sociologically to right. I mean, as humans, we kind of create these traditions, we kind of do things because it’s just always the way it’s been done right.

00:21:15.540 –> 00:21:29.010
Jason Mefford: I mean, I remember there was a all story that Ziegler used to tell about about this woman, you know, baking the ham at the Holiday right and so they would cut off the ends of the ham.

00:21:30.090 –> 00:21:36.780
Jason Mefford: Before they actually baked it right. And finally, so one of the daughters was like, Mom, why do we do that. Well, I don’t know your grandmother did that.

00:21:37.050 –> 00:21:48.000
Jason Mefford: You that, you know, it’s just the way it’s done right. So they go back to Grandma on. It’s like, Grandma. Why did you do that. She’s like, because the standard hand was too big. It wouldn’t fit in my up. And so I had to cut the ends off of the other you know

00:21:49.500 –> 00:21:58.620
Jason Mefford: It’s like sometimes over time. We kind of quick questioning, some of those things. And again, I think that’s where, like you said,

00:21:59.310 –> 00:22:11.010
Jason Mefford: The team leader you know level, we should be probably looking at that more and really trying to, to help organizations especially when it comes to compliance things

00:22:11.280 –> 00:22:11.850
Bruce Turner: And so really

00:22:12.060 –> 00:22:14.610
Jason Mefford: We only want to do things that are actually required

00:22:15.060 –> 00:22:24.540
Bruce Turner: Very true. And I think the audit committee has an important role to play as well in terms of challenging you, Chief. What an executive in terms of what’s coming through in the order plan.

00:22:26.550 –> 00:22:34.410
Jason Mefford: Yeah, they do. And that’s a whole whole nother book that you’re writing is kind of targeting audit committee members because I know

00:22:34.860 –> 00:22:43.920
Jason Mefford: You know, to just just having worked at and coaching CES. There’s a lot of times some frustration with audit committees.

00:22:44.670 –> 00:22:52.260
Jason Mefford: Because sometimes, you know, I think, just like like we were talking about. A lot of times we get kind of thrown into positions that we weren’t really ready for

00:22:52.830 –> 00:23:03.930
Jason Mefford: A lot of times people on the audit committees kind of are that way to or they might be a former CFO right and they don’t have the benefit of having somebody like you, who was

00:23:04.440 –> 00:23:11.580
Jason Mefford: A former CIA. I mean, that’s what, that’s why. One of the things I’ve been saying for a long time to is where’s all the retired CEOs on on

00:23:12.420 –> 00:23:29.940
Jason Mefford: You know, it’s like, don’t, don’t just hire x, you know, CFO or ex partners in public accounting firms that only did external audit you need to have that internal audit side of it as well, to be able to understand what internal audit goes through also

00:23:30.480 –> 00:23:37.530
Bruce Turner: Absolutely. I think it’s imperative. And I think that there’s an opportunity for chief ordered executives and

00:23:38.880 –> 00:23:47.430
Bruce Turner: I guess senior team leaders to start looking beyond the full time employment, what are they going to be doing in retirement, is there an opportunity for them to

00:23:47.940 –> 00:23:59.220
Bruce Turner: Move into that world of water committees, and I think that’s a, it’s a great way to contribute the expertise that they’ve gained over many, many years and but I also think it’s important

00:24:00.120 –> 00:24:09.030
Bruce Turner: For true for the executives to get some experience sitting around the audit committee table as well as a member of the audit committee because

00:24:09.570 –> 00:24:19.770
Bruce Turner: What it does, it actually sharpens your thinking and you start thinking more like your committee than a tree for an executive, which I guess as a step up in some wise.

00:24:20.040 –> 00:24:25.080
Bruce Turner: And not being critical of truth ordered executives, but now when I I went to the Australian tax office.

00:24:26.100 –> 00:24:35.460
Bruce Turner: And I spent about five years there before I retired and you know the audit committee chair was asking, What do you want to do in terms of your professional development, you pretty well rounded and

00:24:35.970 –> 00:24:46.650
Bruce Turner: We agreed that I would take on a couple of water coming roles outside of the federal sphere, and I found it really beneficial to do that and actually help my day job enormously.

00:24:46.920 –> 00:24:55.320
Bruce Turner: Because I think differently. And I think I grew more into the chief audit executive role after you know 40 odd years then

00:24:56.160 –> 00:24:58.260
Bruce Turner: Previously, the real eye opener.

00:24:59.070 –> 00:25:03.330
Jason Mefford: Which is interesting because, you know, a lot of times you’re like I said, I’ve

00:25:04.140 –> 00:25:10.890
Jason Mefford: The most successful chief auditors that I that I know usually have sat on the other side of the desk.

00:25:11.310 –> 00:25:20.160
Jason Mefford: At some point in their career. So, you know, like you said, if you’ve moved out of audit maybe or worked in risk or been in charge of risk and audit or

00:25:20.460 –> 00:25:26.490
Jason Mefford: You know you’ve moved into a controller role for a while and then come back to audit or, like you said, I love that idea to have

00:25:26.970 –> 00:25:44.340
Jason Mefford: You know, sitting on a board or on an audit committee, you know, when I was younger and I served on several different nonprofit boards as well. And so you kind of get an idea of how the board operates what it is to be a board member, because I think it just gives you

00:25:45.660 –> 00:25:47.040
Jason Mefford: Maybe more compassion.

00:25:47.760 –> 00:25:51.450
Jason Mefford: To for for the people and a better understanding

00:25:51.960 –> 00:26:08.790
Jason Mefford: Of what they’re going through, because actually it was inch I’d never heard anybody say it that way but you know like you kind of did. But have you know what made you better in your day job to and actually a CA thinking like an audit committee member is a really good thing.

00:26:09.450 –> 00:26:17.250
Bruce Turner: Is I just pick up on your point about boards as well. Jason because you know I sit on boards and have done so. And for a while now.

00:26:17.880 –> 00:26:28.470
Bruce Turner: And I was sitting on with the first board meeting for a local health district and it covered several of the major hospitals in Australia.

00:26:29.280 –> 00:26:39.900
Bruce Turner: And around the table. There was myself, there were, I think, three or four professors. There were three or four doctors or medical specialists.

00:26:40.740 –> 00:26:48.870
Bruce Turner: Couple of lawyers I walked into the room and it was actually really intimidating at my first board meeting, but I’m thinking, What can I possibly contribute here.

00:26:50.550 –> 00:27:00.090
Bruce Turner: And the penny dropped the penny drop that hey, I come from a totally different background, a very unique skill set that I bring around this table.

00:27:01.470 –> 00:27:10.950
Bruce Turner: And these people who are highly accomplished in their fields were willing to listen and learn and adopt the ideas that are sort of came out with

00:27:11.460 –> 00:27:17.910
Bruce Turner: But initially, it was, it was quite daunting wondering how I could possibly contribute in that environment.

00:27:18.450 –> 00:27:35.820
Bruce Turner: But I experienced big businesses. Well, I’d experienced all of the elements of governance risk management compliance assurance now along the way. And that was a talent that I had that they didn’t have. So it’s interesting that you mentioned boards and how we can contribute there. Yeah.

00:27:36.810 –> 00:27:43.170
Jason Mefford: Well, I think, I think it is and I think the more I mean there’s been a lot of research done that, the more diverse the boards are

00:27:43.980 –> 00:27:59.130
Jason Mefford: The better it is. You know that can be I mean diversity can mean lots of different things. But in every different way, the more diverse your boards are, you know, as far as gender mix ethnicity mix, you know, background.

00:28:00.150 –> 00:28:17.880
Jason Mefford: You know, different professional fields and other stuff because because like you said, I mean on that, on that one board, you had, you know, you had doctors, you had professors and you had lawyers and those all have a different perspective. But again, there’s no there’s no business acumen.

00:28:18.240 –> 00:28:27.450
Jason Mefford: You’re on to it until you kind of came into it. And so having you on the board actually did add quite a bit to it so

00:28:28.320 –> 00:28:35.370
Bruce Turner: And then we worked on on the skills weeks for the board going forward. And because number of people had to retire over the ensuing years

00:28:35.760 –> 00:28:42.750
Bruce Turner: Once they reach the maximum term. So we were able to work on the diversity and were able to work on adopting a skills based board.

00:28:43.500 –> 00:28:51.540
Bruce Turner: Which was really interesting as well. So I was then cheering the denominations committee and putting in place. Some of these practices, which was a lot of fun as well.

00:28:51.960 –> 00:28:52.200

00:28:54.330 –> 00:28:56.100
Jason Mefford: You’ve had an amazing career, my friend.

00:28:57.870 –> 00:29:02.370
Jason Mefford: Well, it’s, you know, we’ve only got a couple minutes left side, I kind of figured, you know,

00:29:03.420 –> 00:29:10.710
Jason Mefford: Where you’d like to go because, you know, again, just for the last couple of minutes because you know i know you’re trying to make the world a better place.

00:29:11.610 –> 00:29:23.910
Jason Mefford: Trying to help our profession. Help, help, do what you can. So, what, what kind of, you know, leaving bits of wisdom, if you will, would you like to, you know, to make sure

00:29:25.680 –> 00:29:27.630
Jason Mefford: To give people before we wrap it up for today.

00:29:29.340 –> 00:29:38.520
Bruce Turner: Well, I think we’ve touched on a few of these through the conversation, Jason. But let me just recap. We’re living in very different times. Now you and I have never experienced the

00:29:40.260 –> 00:29:47.070
Bruce Turner: Challenges that businesses have at the moment the economic situation that many countries are in at the moment.

00:29:47.490 –> 00:29:54.210
Bruce Turner: The loss of life that we’re experiencing as a as a consequence of what is a very serious global pandemic.

00:29:54.630 –> 00:30:00.630
Bruce Turner: We’ve talked about business continuity planning in the past, we talked about crisis management planning in the past.

00:30:01.050 –> 00:30:17.610
Bruce Turner: And those companies and organizations that have good solid arrangements in place a surviving reasonably well as a consequence of that they’ve looked at and they’ve challenged their supply chains over the years and they looked at how they can ensure the businesses sustainable.

00:30:18.810 –> 00:30:23.250
Bruce Turner: But what it means, you know, once we get through this stage of the pandemic.

00:30:23.880 –> 00:30:30.090
Bruce Turner: Business will be operating differently and therefore those people who are involved in internal audit governance risk management.

00:30:30.570 –> 00:30:36.930
Bruce Turner: And compliance activities need to actually look at what the business is going to be like in in five years time.

00:30:37.530 –> 00:30:46.950
Bruce Turner: And need to be start starting to do some of those things we talked about, you know, optimizing controls, they need to be pulling back on some of the routine audit stuff.

00:30:47.460 –> 00:30:54.720
Bruce Turner: That you kind of think you have to do and look at it through the eyes of the business leaders in terms of what is it that’s going to help them.

00:30:55.590 –> 00:31:04.710
Bruce Turner: craft a successful journey over the next few years, and that will mean that we’re going to have to cut back on some things we’re going to have to cut back on things.

00:31:05.430 –> 00:31:13.830
Bruce Turner: As auditors that we would typically think a good things to do in, in some cases, we might call away from some of the sexy things that auditors.

00:31:14.490 –> 00:31:23.190
Bruce Turner: Have been doing for a while and get back to some of the basics as well because it’s in times like these here that some of those fundamental controls do get overlooked.

00:31:24.450 –> 00:31:39.480
Bruce Turner: Deliberately or otherwise. So we need to get the fine balance between, you know, what are some, some of the fundamental controls that are audit committee in their board and now C suite are relying on and give them that level of comfort, but at the same time.

00:31:40.860 –> 00:31:49.650
Bruce Turner: reduce some of that kind of stuff by starting to look at how we can improve the business operations and work with management to do that. So it’s meta

00:31:49.950 –> 00:31:55.560
Bruce Turner: In some cases of rolling up your sleeves and getting stuck in and sharing your insights in our experience.

00:31:56.220 –> 00:32:04.560
Bruce Turner: So that the business does survive in you know 510 years time. Just have a look at the number of organizations that women have grown up with

00:32:05.340 –> 00:32:15.540
Bruce Turner: And no longer exist. And some of these are very, very big companies and whereas we’ve seen some companies and Legos. A really good example of that where

00:32:15.960 –> 00:32:28.140
Bruce Turner: You know they traditionally built building blocks for for boys to use their rediscovered the business vision. A number of years ago. So they created some toys that appeal to girls.

00:32:28.890 –> 00:32:44.820
Bruce Turner: They’ve evolved now into movies and things like that. So they were a business that was able to imagine a different future. And I think we’ve got to help our leaders. Imagine the future of our business. And what that might be.

00:32:46.110 –> 00:32:47.430
Jason Mefford: Well, that’s a, that’s a

00:32:50.460 –> 00:32:56.550
Jason Mefford: That’s a great way to kind of end up because I I hadn’t I hadn’t thought about the Lego example, there’s a few other companies that I’ve

00:32:57.120 –> 00:33:12.480
Jason Mefford: usually refer back to. But yeah, now that you’re saying that you can see where you know it was the foresight of people in that business. And gee, wouldn’t it be great if internal audit can be a part of that discussion, or maybe help bring some of it up so that

00:33:13.920 –> 00:33:28.980
Jason Mefford: You know, instead of our, our, you know, organizations becoming a dinosaur and no longer existing that it’s actually something that can transform itself. And, you know, imagine a different future

00:33:31.230 –> 00:33:33.780
Jason Mefford: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thoughts. Yeah.

00:33:34.800 –> 00:33:38.160
Jason Mefford: I love that. I love that you got the wheels spinning now.

00:33:39.690 –> 00:33:49.500
Jason Mefford: Well Bruce, thank you. You know, for taking time again with me today and good luck. I know you’ve got another book coming out very soon. I think later this fall.

00:33:49.920 –> 00:33:57.450
Jason Mefford: And you’re you’re working to wrap up another one. So there’s going to be more and more information. I’m gonna have to have you keep coming back and back and back so

00:33:58.020 –> 00:33:59.670
Bruce Turner: Why it’s always a pleasure, Jason.

00:34:00.030 –> 00:34:00.630
Jason Mefford: Ellen is

00:34:00.840 –> 00:34:01.680
Bruce Turner: Numbered seats.

00:34:01.950 –> 00:34:03.960
Jason Mefford: All right, well thank you have a good rest your day, man.

00:34:04.740 –> 00:34:05.760
Bruce Turner: Little pigment. Bye bye.

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