What can happen when you are committed to investing in your growth, and you have a fire to learn? You can speed up your career by years.

But don’t take my word for it, listen to this #jammingwithjason #podcast episode and hear a real life case study of what Rashelle Herrera has been able to accomplish in less than a year.

You will hear about the importance of establishing, maintaining and sustaining relationships, being what your organization needs when it needs it, taking the opportunity of a lifetime even though it’s scary, and what you can accomplish when you aren’t afraid and keep learning.

And when you have access to the tools and resources you need and deserve, the sky is the limit on what you can accomplish.

Discover if the Audit Leader Forum and Certified Chief Audit Executive (cCAE) programs discussed in this episode are right for you by visiting these websites so you can take your own opportunity of a lifetime. #internalaudit

Audit Leader Forum: https://bit.ly/3aEjNQb
Certified Chief Audit Executive (cCAE): https://bit.ly/3AmqdOO

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason229/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright, well, I am super excited for today’s episode, because what I like to do every so often is give all of you a great case study.

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Jason Mefford: On what’s possible and today’s guest is exactly that kind of person i’ve got rashly Herrera, with me that i’ve known for for quite a while we’ll get in and we’ll talk a little bit about that.

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Jason Mefford: But what I love about her story is how she’s really kind of grab the bull by the horns, if you will, and especially this last year year and a half of her career.

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Jason Mefford: has made some pretty amazing things happen that I want to make sure and share with all of you, because as i’ve told you before.

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Jason Mefford: there’s clues in success and so as we watch other people have success it helps us to be able to know exactly what you need to do to get that success in your life as well, so with that we’re gonna roll that episode.

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Jason Mefford: All right, rationally, it is great to have you with me today how are you doing.

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Rashellee Herrera: i’m pretty good thanks for having me it’s it’s super cool to hear the intro wow.

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Rashellee Herrera: Can you read for the intro.

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Jason Mefford: And it was like you get a little behind the scenes behind the scenes right, because I know you’ve been you’ve been listening to the podcast for for quite a while now, I think that’s kind of how you and I ended up.

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Jason Mefford: Meeting initially I think right.

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Rashellee Herrera: yeah so you’re listening back in February of this year.

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Jason Mefford: Okay yeah and you’re just you’re just one of those people that makes me smile, you have a beautiful smile, and I want to say I think cool beans to right cool beans.

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Jason Mefford: I love that catchphrase I hear you say every so often do that just makes me.

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Jason Mefford: Just makes me happy, but you know I I wanted to bring you on and talk because.

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Jason Mefford: You know, like I said at the beginning, I think you’ve you’ve done some pretty amazing things in your career this last year, so.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s all because of what you have done and there’s you know i’ve talked about different habits, other things that.

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Jason Mefford: That make people successful, but you are a testament to the fact that if you do these things, you will be successful, you will go where you want to go right along the way, so I thought we kind of jump in and get get started, you know kind of talking about this because.

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Jason Mefford: You know I know I know for quite a while you were working for the same company and then at some point you just kind of decided it’s time for something else.

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Rashellee Herrera: A lot more or less yeah I was at the same company for the majority of my career, where I learned a ton I started there literally as an auditor one.

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Rashellee Herrera: Just textbook theory no practical experience and then I really developed all the way through.

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Rashellee Herrera: All my skills, all the way through to an audit manager and when I when I was there and I was not a manager there for a couple of years, and you can say that, and in terms of the sea and the tea, I really, really honed my a skills at that previous company.

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Rashellee Herrera: And then I was recruited from there it’s another company to help them to build out their internal audit function.

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Jason Mefford: Okay yeah and I think I think the first thing you know is is is like that there’s a lot of people that kind of stay with the same company or they want to stay with the same company because it’s comfortable.

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Jason Mefford: Right you’ve been there for a long time, you know and they know you, but every so often in our life we get opportunities that come along.

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Jason Mefford: Right and that’s that’s what you got right so.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and I don’t know I don’t I actually don’t know if you were actively looking or if this you know new company reached out to you, it happens, sometimes both ways, so how was it, how was it in your career, where you looking for something are we.

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Rashellee Herrera: Right, no, I definitely wasn’t looking I am one of those rare people that I could stay at the same company forever and.

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Rashellee Herrera: just fine.

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Rashellee Herrera: So, but now I was I wasn’t looking the opportunity presented itself and I thought I would be a fool if I didn’t actually do this because ultimately.

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Rashellee Herrera: What do I want to be in this field, not a not a manager forever and and you know, and you know in any audit shop you’re only going to have one person at the head of the department, so I can stay.

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Rashellee Herrera: But I wouldn’t I would never be that person, so I was being given an opportunity of a lifetime, I think.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think that that’s a great way to look at it right that’s a phrase, a lot of us here opportunity of a lifetime right but, but so much of the time, I mean you had that choice at that point in time, right that you could have said wow no i’m okay i’m just gonna stay here.

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Rashellee Herrera: I did.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but instead when that opportunity came along, you chose to take it.

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Rashellee Herrera: Which is against my nature.

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Rashellee Herrera: As.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s against a lot of people’s nature right because we get comfortable it’s like man, this is going to be something new that i’m going to have to do that, I might have to learn.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but when those opportunities come along and i’ve seen this from you, for a little while now right that, when some of these opportunities come along, even though it might not be in your nature.

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Jason Mefford: you’re still reaching out and taking those opportunities.

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Jason Mefford: Right and and again, you know it’s it’s like like I said I mean it’s it came to you, you had an opportunity.

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Jason Mefford: And you took it now now when you took it because, again right you’re going from you know and again we’re talking about.

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Jason Mefford: Internal Audit because rationally happens to work and internal audit, but this is true for any of you, regardless of what kind of career, you have right, you were trained very well, you were very good at what your job was, but this opportunity was going to be something different right.

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Jason Mefford: Was that a little scary.

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Rashellee Herrera: Very scary it was it was very scary because, at my previous company being there for so long, I know all the people I knew all the processes I knew I knew what I was doing I was comfortable.

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Rashellee Herrera: The new opportunity or what’s to be expected of me and.

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Rashellee Herrera: I have to learn new people new build new relationships, but is also not something i’m naturally comfortable with either.

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Rashellee Herrera: building relationships learn an entire new business something, then i’m completely not comfortable with.

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Rashellee Herrera: So, in some ways, I felt like will I be starting from scratch, but not with the audit perspective, but just with you know just learning the new the new business and the new people, and that was a little bit scary for me.

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Rashellee Herrera: Because you know the different kinds of people i’m not the most social I don’t I don’t go out of my way to talk to people.

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Rashellee Herrera: And that makes sense.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it does, but knowing you I can’t imagine you’re a funny person to hang out with anyway, so you know but yeah we we you know a lot of people, especially in this profession or just in general, I mean i’m guessing you would consider yourself more of an introvert than extrovert.

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Jason Mefford: Definitely right, so I find myself i’m the same way right, and so I can be the life of the party.

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Jason Mefford: But but that’s not usually where i’m most comfortable right, and so a lot of times like that knowing.

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Jason Mefford: You know the art you already knew the job right you already have those skills down so that was going to be pretty easily transferable.

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Jason Mefford: But like you said there’s is building relationships there’s learning the whole new company there’s kind of it is that starting over kind of feeling that I was guests was going through your head, that was a little scary.

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Rashellee Herrera: yeah and then it’s just starting over for sure, and, as you say, like I knew the job, but I knew.

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Rashellee Herrera: I knew the job, and I would say that probably what I found out the most and that started happening earlier this year was that I knew how to audit, but I didn’t necessarily know the other parts of the job.

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Rashellee Herrera: Like the strategic aspects of the job, the executive aspects of the job like what like what what does that really entail.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well in at that point right, I mean you can, and this is again I think something for for people to kind of learn.

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Jason Mefford: You knew that you didn’t have that So what did you do.

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Rashellee Herrera: When looking.

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You went looking right.

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Jason Mefford: Now now i’m gonna i’m gonna give you, you know sweet props for that right away Okay, because a lot of times when.

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Jason Mefford: When when we realize it or maybe an overhead we don’t know something we need to learn something sometimes people just shut down right, but instead you went looking right would you go looking for where were you where were you trying to find.

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Rashellee Herrera: well.

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Rashellee Herrera: I guess, something that I learned was that to really know even what to start looking for is to find out what it is that you, you want your what your objective is.

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Rashellee Herrera: So I knew that my objective well okay so just to back up a little bit a couple years back, I was at one of the gang conferences and I.

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Rashellee Herrera: listened to Richard chambers give this incredible presentation and he was promoting his book for the trusted advisors and I bought the book and I read the book and that book really kind of cemented for me what I what I wanted to be as the head of a an internal audit department.

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Rashellee Herrera: It gave me like like oh wow these things really are possible, and this is like a really good way to look at what the audit function can do so when I was looking this year to see how to be better at what the what this job is what I went looking for is, how can I become a trusted advisor.

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Rashellee Herrera: Like specifically that like an internal audit and honestly just Google searches and one of the things that I came across was i’m jammin let’s Jason the specific episode was one of the earlier ones where you spoke with Larry harrington.

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yeah.

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Rashellee Herrera: And that conversation completely blew my mind, then, I went back to the first episodes I started seeing in February, but i’m all caught up I started, I was listening to you like just non stop.

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Rashellee Herrera: Non stop like catching up on all the episodes I was like oh my gosh my mind, is completely blown.

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Rashellee Herrera: And it really shifted something in me like it.

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Rashellee Herrera: It made me feel, how do you say it it’s backed up what I what I learned from the trusted advisors book but it’s a things to a whole other level, like the next level.

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Rashellee Herrera: And it just like the more or less than the more I wanted to listen to more I wanted somewhere and just and just kept kept kept looking.

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Rashellee Herrera: And then, so the people that you would talk to I would look into them and, like if they recommended books, I would not all the books, with some of the books, I would read those books and and I would learn from them as well, so it’s it’s it’s been a lot of learning a lot about a lot of girl.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah and I think it’s interesting you know so so if we back up just a little bit just to kind of recap, because, again, sometimes we need to hear things more than once right but.

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Jason Mefford: Before you even started looking you had to know what your objective was right.

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Jason Mefford: And, and like you said you’d read that you know or came across a term trusted advisor realize that was something that you were looking for that you wanted to do.

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Jason Mefford: So then, how can I become that right, and however through all the synchronicities that happen in the world, you ended up upon that that particular episode.

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Jason Mefford: So, so when you when you talk about you know that it started shifting something in you What was it What was it shifting or what was shifting, how can you describe that to people what was happening.

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Rashellee Herrera: um.

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Rashellee Herrera: I would say that it was more of.

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Rashellee Herrera: This makes sense to me this feels natural to me this feels good to me this feels like something that I can do, I just need to keep learning.

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Rashellee Herrera: Where before it was.

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Rashellee Herrera: I wasn’t as confident in that feeling.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s that’s a big one that I hear from a lot of people right is because, if we don’t really know.

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Jason Mefford: And we don’t feel very confident and if we’re not very confident, then what we’re doing is and usually that good as well right but I guess it like you said it, it made it feel like this is something you can do.

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Jason Mefford: And I guess in that gave you hope, or how would you describe that.

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Rashellee Herrera: Hope hope is good hopes, a good word it gave me hope it gave me i’m probably a little bit of fire actually.

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Rashellee Herrera: Fire yeah.

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Rashellee Herrera: That was that was incredibly motivated.

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Jason Mefford: So what was I guess what was motivating for you about it.

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Rashellee Herrera: Well okay so i’m in a position where I was in a position where I was the acting head of.

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Rashellee Herrera: Of the internal audit function and.

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Rashellee Herrera: As the I think Ted if you know, it was the thought was always well for me to eventually get the time to develop in the role and then become the head of the role.

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Rashellee Herrera: But then, a couple of things shifted and that the company decided to go public a couple years sooner than it initially anticipated, and so the need, then, for a real head then of the internal audit department.

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Rashellee Herrera: became more urgent and the fire that I had well with other things that I was learning, I was I.

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Rashellee Herrera: What I wanted to do was to make sure that I was that person when that person is chosen.

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Rashellee Herrera: I didn’t want it to be someone else that, then I would be necessarily reporting to them and having to.

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Rashellee Herrera: He has followed their vision, especially their vision wasn’t aligned with all the things that was firing me up all these months.

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Jason Mefford: So just just for people that are you know they’re listening that are familiar with kind of internal audit how it works.

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Jason Mefford: Just kind of explain that right, so you were hired you were brought in as an interim or acting had you know with the idea of kind of growing into the role you thought you had a few years to.

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Jason Mefford: grow into it.

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Jason Mefford: All of a sudden know things change now we’re going to do this, much quicker right.

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Jason Mefford: And so yeah there was the risk to you, if you will, that hey I thought I had two or three or four years before I i’d be kind of like fully promoted it’s almost like a not not really probationary time but kinda.

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Jason Mefford: Right.

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Rashellee Herrera: Right yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and so, so there was some uncertainty as to whether or not this was going to be your job or if they were going to look at you a year from now, and say yes you’re not quite ready yet we better hire somebody and over the top of you right.

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Jason Mefford: If i’m understanding it right.

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Rashellee Herrera: Now exactly exactly.

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Jason Mefford: And so that’s probably what gave you some of the fire is look.

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Jason Mefford: i’m going to be the one who gets the job not somebody else right.

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yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s exactly what happened isn’t it.

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Rashellee Herrera: Exactly what happened.

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Jason Mefford: Exactly what happened, but I know you’ve been you’ve been investing a lot in yourself, you know this last year or so I guess it didn’t it hadn’t even been quite a year I don’t think right he said.

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Rashellee Herrera: Eight months.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so you have accomplished a tremendous amount in eight months of getting yourself kind of upscale up skilled.

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Jason Mefford: right to be able to take over that position, so what are some of the things that you did in that in that time because again people that are listening kind of be like whoa hold it how.

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Jason Mefford: How did that happen, how did it happen so quick because I want people to kind of see what you’ve done and and start to see you know the the the trends, the parallels and how they can kind of translate that into their life as well.

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Rashellee Herrera: Well, I guess the, the first thing, obviously, is listening to your podcast complete at it yours, and also to Trent russell’s podcast as well.

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Rashellee Herrera: it’s pretty great and just listening and getting information and perspectives from many different people and learning from many different people then.

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Rashellee Herrera: Another thing that I did was well, I have a pretty supportive group here and my company very supportive leaders and.

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Rashellee Herrera: One of the things that I that I did um and it was kind of pushed by them this part of it and, in that they they mentioned hey you know, is there a course or something that you can say.

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Rashellee Herrera: And I thought well there used to be, I know that I had a vision university course that they did for for the heads of internal audit departments, but then I looked into that for about two seconds and then.

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Rashellee Herrera: I was like but I don’t know if that’s really what’s what’s best for me, but then I also knew from this thing’s all your podcasts that you have a program.

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Rashellee Herrera: The chief audit executive forum, but I also thought I wouldn’t be eligible, because because I wasn’t a chief audit executive.

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Rashellee Herrera: So, then, I reached out to you on linkedin and I think everything happens for a reason, because the timing of that was just incredible because I think I reached out to you in April, beginning of April, and you were getting ready to roll out the new.

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Rashellee Herrera: registration period, and it was kind of like right in there and I got and I got in and I felt like that to me felt a little bit like destiny.

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Rashellee Herrera: could have been any other month, but it was right, but you know if I like destiny.

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Rashellee Herrera: So I started participating in that and I.

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Rashellee Herrera: went back and I listened to all of the previous recordings and the program so I went back to I guess 2019 was the first time I listened to them all caught up.

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Rashellee Herrera: With that and those conversations just hearing the different perspective from all the different shape lot of executives and just learning about hiccups that they’ve had, and in some cases, things that i’ve seen and my current role.

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Rashellee Herrera: And and and and just listening to just just get the insight from everyone is really catapulted I think my knowledge and my awareness, with just how to think about things and.

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Rashellee Herrera: Then you came out with the Chief Executive course and.

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Rashellee Herrera: it’s.

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Rashellee Herrera: I got it right away right away excited I was doing.

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Rashellee Herrera: The programs faster than you could put them out.

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Rashellee Herrera: And do before.

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Jason Mefford: yeah.

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Rashellee Herrera: yeah yeah we get super excited i’m each time another one will come out and that was just do the programs I didn’t actually did the course of a couple of times.

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Rashellee Herrera: i’ve been through like each thing multiple times because, as you say you know you don’t necessarily get something, the first time and then each time you listen to something you hear something different, and.

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Rashellee Herrera: I i’ve just been just been a sponge really just just taking everything in and trying to apply, little by little little things that I learned something and trying to take that and to apply to my day to day and it’s been.

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Rashellee Herrera: Very fun.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and that’s why.

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Jason Mefford: I I didn’t know some of the stuff that you just told me right there, so I mean again I I knew, you were a rock Star and that you were kicking butt.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s.

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Jason Mefford: it’s exciting for me to see somebody else who was also as curious and loves learning.

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Jason Mefford: Like you seem to write.

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Jason Mefford: Because there was this fire behind you, I mean to go back and listen to all of my podcast episodes you know, and I know some are better than others so many probably like Jason was to get through this right.

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Jason Mefford: But you went you went back through you listen to all of those you know you come into the new program you go back and listen to two years, worth of you know, over two years worth of.

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Jason Mefford: recordings and videos from beforehand right, I mean most of the people that have been in the program they don’t they don’t ever go back and watch him right you watch the whole thing you went through this CCA course.

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Jason Mefford: You know twice, you were just devouring that like I said quicker than I could bring it out.

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Jason Mefford: doing everything I could.

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Jason Mefford: Fast but, but you know, I think that shows again the type of person that you are and why you’ve been able to accomplish what you have so quick, I mean you effectively crammed a couple of years, worth of learning into these eight months.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t know if you realize that or not.

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Rashellee Herrera: I I do actually I do I do I realized it and, at the same time.

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Rashellee Herrera: It doesn’t feel like it’s cramming but it doesn’t feel like cramming like the normal results of pattern for an exam that you cram and you take the test, and then you forget everything and, in this case, it feels like it’s.

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Rashellee Herrera: it’s there it’s like it’s like a part of me because it’s.

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Rashellee Herrera: it’s a lot of information in a short period of time, but it’s also little information, a little bit at a time like I was just it’s just something I do it daily you know just just a part of my life my habits.

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Well, we talked about.

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Jason Mefford: It because yeah I mean it’s it’s the.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as you go through and kind of talk about that, and then you start applying these things day to day that’s where you start to get it, but but yeah I mean.

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Jason Mefford: So, so if we read rewind a little bit right so let’s let’s assume again when you got when you got the new role you had a couple of options that you could have chosen from.

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Jason Mefford: You knew you needed to learn something you could have gone out and just read a bunch of books or just you know done some.

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Jason Mefford: Some Internet searches let’s say and try to figure it out on your own right that’s one option that could have happened.

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Jason Mefford: But you very quickly and, like you said it felt like it was destiny and again when you reached out to me it’s like well, of course, you can come in the program right it’s like you’re right here, you need this sort of thing.

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Jason Mefford: But.

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Jason Mefford: You know, having that and going through and watching all of those videos.

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Jason Mefford: Literally was like getting years of perspective in a very short period of time right because some of the people that you were listening to on those videos.

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Jason Mefford: they’ve been in this role for 20 years I mean, these are some kick ass people in the industry who really.

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Jason Mefford: You know, have their shit together and they they know what’s what’s going on right but, but even they have some challenges and other things at different times but.

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Jason Mefford: You know, going through a program like that, having the dedication like you had of learning and doing a little bit every day or a little bit every week.

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Jason Mefford: You know, really sped up what it would take most people on their own five to 10 years to learn, you were able to learn, but you didn’t just learn it you started applying it as well.

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Jason Mefford: Right so So what are some examples, maybe a things that you actually you don’t is it that this is one thing that a lot of people we go through, we take a bunch of courses and we get a bunch of content, but we never really learned anything because we never really apply it.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so how what what were, maybe some of the things that are ways that you were able to kind of take this or apply it into what you’re doing so you actually learned it you got it it’s internalized at that point.

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Rashellee Herrera: I would say the two biggest things i’m David the two biggest things are one, the importance of relationships right.

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Rashellee Herrera: And lately I knew that.

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Rashellee Herrera: Like i’m good at talking talking to people who don’t necessarily like to but naturally empathetic and so like I.

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Rashellee Herrera: I build relationships, but I am not the person that necessarily.

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Rashellee Herrera: Go out of that goes out of my way to try to sustain that relationship like you know.

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Rashellee Herrera: What one of the things I took from the program was think houses.

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Rashellee Herrera: You know, to like develop and maintain and sustain it so like when I think they took them that is actively working on that actively working on not just.

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Rashellee Herrera: yeah we’re you know we get along great, and you know i’m a nice person, you know i’m a nice person, but actually staying active.

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Rashellee Herrera: In the with the with the people that are building relationships with overtime and not just when I need something or when they need something.

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Jason Mefford: that’s what this what this one of the first things yeah it’s important and, again, a lot of people don’t don’t realize that or don’t think about it right well i’ve got a relationship, because I, you know we we dated before we got married.

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Jason Mefford: And now.

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Jason Mefford: Now for the next two years i’m going to ignore you unless I need something right that’s not a very good, you know recipe for marriage.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s not really a good relation or you know recipe for relationships as well, so okay so yeah and.

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Jason Mefford: actively working on sustaining those relationships doing something each week or each month or whatever it is, but actually being intentional about it.

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Jason Mefford: sounds like has been one of the things that’s been very helpful for you, so what so what what’s the other one or two that you’re going to mention.

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Rashellee Herrera: Another one is.

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Rashellee Herrera: Being what the business needs from the business needs it, and not just wearing my internal auditor hat and, as far as saying that you know I can’t do X y&z because that would impair my objectivity.

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Rashellee Herrera: So that’s one of the things I took from from the podcast and also from the from the Program.

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Rashellee Herrera: And really going out a way to be value added to the business value can come in many different ways it’s but it’s being what the what the business needs and the business needs it.

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Jason Mefford: yeah I love, how you just said that there at the end value comes in different ways, I think, is a beautiful thing for us to remember.

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Jason Mefford: In career, as well as personal life as well right that that we can show up and add value, but its.

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Jason Mefford: value is really about what the other person perceives as value and not necessarily what we perceive as value right.

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Jason Mefford: And so it’s almost like you kind of went from a kind of realized look it’s not necessarily about me and about what I need to do, but what do the other people need, and how can I show up and kind of serve that way does that.

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Jason Mefford: Sound right so it’s almost like a shift shift on you have i’ve got a job to do i’ve got these tasks to check off my list versus what is it that the other person really needs for me, because my checklist probably isn’t may not be that important at the end of the day.

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Rashellee Herrera: Exactly and.

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Rashellee Herrera: Then the third one is.

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Rashellee Herrera: The vision and the strategy that I have for the apartment is making sure that whatever we’re doing it’s in line with the strategies of the company we’re not over here, looking at something that no one really cares about.

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Rashellee Herrera: But you know we like it so we’ll look at it it’s making sure that what we’re what we’re looking at is actually the things that that that they need from us that we’re aligned with the with the strategies of the company.

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Jason Mefford: And those have been word sounds like those have been working out pretty well for you so far.

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Rashellee Herrera: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well it’s it’s it’s nice like I said I mean, I just wanted to kind of chat to.

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Jason Mefford: share your experience, so thank you for sharing your experience because, again, I think a lot of people.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of people are in the situation, you were in before right where it’s like I need some help I don’t really know where to go I don’t necessarily know what to do right, but they can look at what you’ve been able to accomplish and see if that works for them.

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Jason Mefford: You know, because it’s it’s.

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Jason Mefford: Like I said i’m proud of you.

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Jason Mefford: I mean you have you’ve really kicked butt this last this last year and it, it takes a lot of awareness and I think it’s.

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Jason Mefford: To give you a lot of credit to is that a lot of times it’s hard for people to admit that they need help, or that they want to accept help, or that they want to get help.

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Jason Mefford: And so that first acknowledgement, you know kudos on you, you know back in February of hey I need some help, let me, let me go figure out what it is that I need.

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Jason Mefford: But then, also the commitment, because you know again so many people they’ll start something and they’ll work really hard for a couple of days, and then they stopped.

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Jason Mefford: And then they stopped right.

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Jason Mefford: But you haven’t you haven’t you’ve continued on right with that grit with the commitment that whatever it is that you want to call it, of.

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Jason Mefford: You know, continuing to keep going and keep doing those things that have been making you successful and I love, how you kind of you know, pointed out those three areas because again.

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Jason Mefford: You keep doing those things you’re going to be successful over your whole career, regardless of where your career takes you because because those are three things right that.

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Jason Mefford: are important, regardless of what job you might have.

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Rashellee Herrera: A.

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Jason Mefford: heck even in our personal life, you know as well, because how much of the time don’t we don’t we spend the time sustaining certain relationships and then we wonder what happened.

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Jason Mefford: Because we weren’t there, it was the it was the equivalent of i’m dealing with my stuff and you just kind of unless I need you i’m not gonna you know reach out to you.

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Jason Mefford: So yeah so I mean you know you’ve kind of come through this this part of the journey, are there any.

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Jason Mefford: Particular pieces of wisdom that you would give to people, you know.

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Jason Mefford: Or what what you might have told yourself a year year and a half ago, or two years ago, to give you encouragement or.

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Rashellee Herrera: i’m.

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Rashellee Herrera: I think what I would what I would say to my self two years ago, is to.

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Rashellee Herrera: not be afraid.

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Rashellee Herrera: Not not be afraid, the the the fear that I that I felt or the anxiety that I that I felt or gave myself was completely unnecessary and the.

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Rashellee Herrera: The thing that you do to overcome, that is to just keep learning educate yourself.

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Jason Mefford: Well, actually do some of this stuff right because again learning.

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Jason Mefford: learning is an active thing.

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Rashellee Herrera: It is, I don’t think you really learn unless you do right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and that’s why and again the.

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Jason Mefford: Because I love that you brought that up because again so much of the time we get anxious we get fearful of different things.

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Jason Mefford: And I, and I know you know even again, this is not to call you out or anything like that, but it’s because we all do this right, where.

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Jason Mefford: When we get an opportunity or something presents itself, our first natural reaction is no hope i’m not quite ready yet right, and so I remember when I reached out to you, and you know your point was well I don’t i’ve never done that, before give me a couple of months right.

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Jason Mefford: To which, of course, since I.

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Jason Mefford: have to help kind of coach you it’s like well what makes you think you’re going to be any more confident you know, three months from now can’t you just have a conversation with somebody.

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Jason Mefford: And again, you know your willingness at that point, because again i’ve seen you grow and develop over this last year and to where.

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Jason Mefford: You know you weren’t afraid and so that advice that you would have given yourself back then you’re taking now to write, because at the end of the day, there’s no not really anything to be afraid of right you’re not going to die from coming on here and.

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Jason Mefford: Talking.

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Rashellee Herrera: I mean it could happen.

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Jason Mefford: chances are.

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Jason Mefford: You have a better.

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Jason Mefford: chance of winning the lottery than you do.

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Jason Mefford: But like I said i’ve seen you show up and you’re actually taking that advice for yourself to.

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Jason Mefford: Which is, which is great advice it’s not just great career advice, but it’s great advice in life, I think, as well too.

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Jason Mefford: Well, thank you for for taking the time and coming on here with me like I said i’m i’m just really proud of what you’ve accomplished you’ve put in the hard work and you’ve.

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Jason Mefford: you’ve gotten exactly where you want it to be and i’m i’m happy for you.

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Rashellee Herrera: Thank you.

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Rashellee Herrera: Thank you so much Jason.

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Jason Mefford: you’re welcome, and again I mean lots of people listening to this are going to be able to get out of it and realize.

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Jason Mefford: The same things that rationally has done for the last year folks is the same thing you can do as well because i’m guessing right other people can do what you were doing right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah okay everyone every everybody can do it, but.

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Jason Mefford: It does take that commitment and investing in yourself in doing the things, but these things are possible and, like in your situation much faster even then you realized that it was going to be as well.

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Jason Mefford: But here you are here you are.

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Jason Mefford: All right, well thanks for Ashley and really appreciate you coming on.

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Rashellee Herrera: Thank you, thanks.

Have you ever got up from bed and wondered “what am I doing?”, “why am I doing this?”, or “am I doing the right thing?”

Our guest Chenise Iwamasa is a lawyer based in Hawaii that has a great story on how she was able to find meaning within her career.

If you have ever felt a little lost on why you are where you are, or frustrated with your current job, then today’s episode is a great listen for you!

Connect with Chenise at https://zivalaw.com/ or on Instagram

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright, well, I gotta tell you i’m really excited for today’s episode, because it really doesn’t matter what we do for a living, but it seems like.

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Jason Mefford: almost everybody at some point wakes up a few years into their career and things what the hell, am I doing Why am I doing this, am I doing the right thing right.

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Jason Mefford: Where it just feels like sometimes we need to find our way, and you know there’s the old saying don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.

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Jason Mefford: And I see this some so much of the time in some people’s careers, is there they’re not happy, in a particular circumstance that they’re in.

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Jason Mefford: and often what they end up doing is effectively throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and we don’t need to do that and i’m excited.

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Jason Mefford: to share with you the discussion that I had with Denise because she’s got a great story that everybody needs to hear and so whatever you do listen to this entire episode because.

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Jason Mefford: you’re going to hear exactly what you need to hear today to help you improve your life and, with that let’s roll the episode.

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Jason Mefford: Alright shouldn’t nice well I am excited to have you here you’ve you’ve got a beautiful smile and a beautiful energy about shoes so welcome.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Thank you Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Welcome and we’re kind of you know where Pacific Ocean it in today’s episode right i’m in California you’re in Hawaii right but but maybe just just.

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Jason Mefford: Introduce yourself a little bit to the people that are listening and then let’s kind of jump in because you’ve got a great story that I want to hear and the other people want to hear as well, of kind of how your career has gone the way that it has so take her away.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah absolutely um my name is she’s you will masa my current i’m a lawyer, a commercial leasing lawyer in honolulu Hawaii i’ve been practicing law for about 17 years now i’m also a mother of two.

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Chenise Iwamasa: very energetic children.

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Chenise Iwamasa: My eight year old daughter, and a five year old son, so you know i’m busy doing all the things and writing my law practice serving my clients and I have a very micro niche practice where I help.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Small Business tenants primarily with negotiating better leases and navigating these issues.

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Jason Mefford: Okay yeah so it’s it’s you know, a couple of things that you just brought up there is.

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Jason Mefford: You know you have your own firm and you’re also a mother.

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Jason Mefford: Right.

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Jason Mefford: So I think I think that’s you know, maybe we’ll talk a little bit about this as well, but you know, like I said I want to hear your story.

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Jason Mefford: But I think it’s important for everybody, listening to right it’s like we all have families, we all have kids there’s all this other stuff that you’re trying to do, as well as running your business.

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Jason Mefford: And I think that’s that’s maybe where you know let’s just jump in and get into your story because i’m guessing that.

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Jason Mefford: This is going to come up as well, and so people that are listening it’s going to resonate with them because there’s a lot of people who are mothers or fathers that are listening to this as well, so.

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Jason Mefford: So maybe maybe explain a little bit because you know yeah i’m a CPA I have you know professional work we are both trained in professions right.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, and but but kind of explain the journey and how you got to where you are, because I know, especially with attorneys i’ve heard this from a lot is they wake up one day and they’re like why the hell, did I become a lawyer.

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Jason Mefford: And i’m guessing that you had that that kind of experience, maybe too so just just kind of share share your story and then let’s we’ll dig in a little bit deeper as we get going through here.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Sure sounds good um so my story actually starts way back in elementary school because I wanted to be an attorney since I was in the fifth grade.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um I yeah and I, you know, looking back to the 11 year old she Nice, the reasons really why I wanted to do, be a lawyer is because I wanted to help people.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I wanted to fight for underdogs you know, and I thought that the way to do that was to be a lawyer and the lawyer is I go to court right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Because that’s what I saw on TV I watch line order the alley mcbeal all of those good lawyer shows, and so I followed that path, so all the way through school.

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Chenise Iwamasa: undergrad I went to law school and I started off my career actually as a litigation attorney so I was civil litigation attorney.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, going and battling out cases in court.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And the funny thing is that I very quickly realized that it wasn’t a good fit for me um you know I would say, you know, I was doing that for about three years and within the first year.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I was like you know it, I just found it very energetically draining to be fighting all the time, so you know you’re going to court you’re you’re fighting with opposing counsel.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, some some attorneys love it right that’s what they thrive off of what for me I just knew immediately like I would come home at the end of the day I just feel completely drained.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And the favorite my favorite parts of my days at that time, where the mediation, the settlement conferences, the negotiations to try to resolve disputes.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So, at that point in my career about three years in.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I decided to make a change so at that time it was hard for me because I thought hey I wanted to be a litigation attorney my whole life, since I was in the fifth grade right, you know now what.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um, and so I joined a boutique real estate law firm doing transactional work, so what that means you know the litigators go to court.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And the transactional attorneys basically draft contracts and negotiate deals.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I I kind of shifted my my practice area to that and and I liked it I enjoyed it much more as a better fit for me.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, doing transactional work negotiations i’m definitely a more collaborative deal making type of attorney in my heart and I felt that, so I would I felt like I was shifting into a space that felt more aligned with who I am.

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Chenise Iwamasa: But at that firm I was still you know, representing many corporate developer typical clients in commercial real estate purchase and sale contracts.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Commercial leasing on the landlord and the tenant side as well as very big you know large hundreds of millions of dollars worth in real estate and development finance transactions.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So it was very stressful you know you still have that level of stress and I kind of worked my way up to a beginning to partner in that law firm.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And although I was much happier than it was as a litigator I think there was just something still inside me that didn’t feel completely aligned.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And they didn’t know what it was so there was a period of years, where I was kind of searching, you know in myself it’s like.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I wanted to you sometimes you meet people and they’re like I am a judge, and I am so grateful that i’m a judge this is what I meant to do.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I so like I want I come into work every morning and I love my job right those type of people and I wanted that and I knew in my heart that I didn’t have that at the time.

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Chenise Iwamasa: But I didn’t know what it was that I wanted to do so you’re kind of in that limbo land.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Where you’re I was reading a lot of books like trying to figure out what it is like interview, I would take people out to lunch in different industries and I tried to just you know gather as much information as I could to figure out.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Maybe Is there something else for me and I, and I was seriously considering maybe it’s not the law and maybe this is not, you know, maybe I made a mistake, maybe this is not.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Really, what I was meant to do, and maybe you know, I have a lot of i’m a multi passionate person I like to bake I like to do a lot of different things, I was like I don’t know my family was telling me to open a bakery and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, different types of things like that, and so that’s kind of that’s where I was at that time.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well it’s interesting because as you’re as you’re talking there there’s there’s some themes and i’m sure we’re going to kind of come back to some of this too, as we dig in more but.

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Jason Mefford: But I thought it was interesting you know you started off wanting to help people and fight for the underdog right Those are some of the words that you use in.

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Jason Mefford: I forgotten until you were kind of.

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Jason Mefford: Sharing that you know, and here you were in fifth grade wanting to become an attorney right because, because when I when I was growing up as a teenager you know, I was going to be a leveraged buyout financier I was going to buy and sell companies right.

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Jason Mefford: wow that’s that’s that’s what I was planning to do and then.

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Jason Mefford: You know, along the way I got involved in politics, a little bit you know and and had some you know worked in in that kind of an area, and so I thought okay now i’m going to do polly sigh.

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Jason Mefford: get my law degree right that’s that’s kind of the route that a lot of people end up going on that, but but I remember, because, as you were as you were sitting here talking about it being energetically draining right, I remember, I remember an experience that I had where.

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Jason Mefford: I got pulled over by some COPs because the company truck it wasn’t my truck it was a company truck right the the license plate tag had expired.

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Jason Mefford: And I remember you know they played good cop, bad cop and we’re asking me questions and I realized, there was no right answer.

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Jason Mefford: The way they were asking me the question it didn’t matter which way I responded it wasn’t like the right answer and I remember, I remember thinking because, because for a while I was going to be a civil or criminal attorney as well right yeah.

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Jason Mefford: And all of a sudden, it was just like boom, as I was sitting there in the truck and it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: I can’t be an attorney, that is, I don’t want to be the person putting making people feel uncomfortable.

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Jason Mefford: and put them in a bind to where they can actually answer the question because, whichever way they answer.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right and I get what I wanted right.

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Jason Mefford: But, but you know, and that was for me, and so I took a different route at that point, but I think it’s interesting.

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Jason Mefford: You know and i’m sure we’re gonna we’re going to get there, because we kind of stopped your story.

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Jason Mefford: Where you’re working you know with the larger developers commercial interest these larger multi million dollar projects, but the whole time you’ve wanted to help people and fight for the underdog.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right, and so you know some of the words that you use there about CERT you know you’re searching don’t quite feel aligned but you’re not quite sure what that means.

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yeah.

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Jason Mefford: So pick up the story what what ended up happening because, again, you know i’m sure lots of people that are listening feel the same way right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah yeah.

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Jason Mefford: I mean there’s been different times in my career when I didn’t necessarily feel aligned, so you figured it out though so right that’s why.

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Jason Mefford: Have you here, because so many people are sitting there, like you, are a few years ago, like I don’t know what to do.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right, you know the number one thing in that space, even at the time when I didn’t yet.

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Chenise Iwamasa: know what it was, and I was searching I had other friends so other colleagues lawyers who were in a similar space, you know who they were not happy.

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Chenise Iwamasa: But they weren’t doing anything about it right, so what I tried to do differently is you know you are.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You are where your attention is right, so if you’re just sitting back and just doing doing the daily grind doing the work you’re not happy, you complain about it every day to your friends.

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Chenise Iwamasa: When you keep going to work and doing the same thing you’re not going to get any different result so, even though I there was a period of years that I was unhappy I was searching I was trying to actively figure it out right so.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I really would like I said I was reading books, I was listening to things I was you know meeting with people trying to make connections and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: explore what what it could possibly be, even if I didn’t know at the time with that what’s.

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Jason Mefford: That that’s an important lesson for everybody who’s listening right because i’ve seen it you’ve seen it right all the people that bitch and moan about.

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Jason Mefford: Your job.

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Jason Mefford: But they’re not doing anything about it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah and there’s no magic fairy that’s going to plop a job opportunity that’s going to be your dharma in your lap right, you have to actively go for it and try to figure it out and grow all the growth that comes from the process right so that’s kind of what I was doing at that point.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And it’s not instant you’re not going to just you know pick up one book and know the answer after you finished reading it takes time but trusting right in the divine timing that you know when it when it needs to happen, it will happen.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so how did it happen for you right because, again, sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: I mean like you said right we’re all sitting here like come on.

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Jason Mefford: Already right i’m doing all the stuff why isn’t this happening right.

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Jason Mefford: So how how did it come come to you, I mean, I guess, obviously, like you said you have to be open to it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: You have to be looking, you have to be doing some things, but how did it come to you.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Okay, so back, I think it was in March of 2013.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I decided to go to the American Bar Association has a textual every year in Chicago.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And at the time, my my firm, you know we’re pretty tech savvy law firm, so we were paperless law office you know we’re in the process of upgrading to a new document management system.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So we’re you know moving in the direction of getting some new software and, and so I volunteered I said i’ll go up to the tech show, and I wanted to meet some of the vendors all that stuff.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And at that time my kids were even younger than they are now so I remember.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I even have my planner where I wrote down and I wasn’t sure if I should go on this trip, because you know I wasn’t at that point.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I hadn’t taken any kind of TRIPS and the kids with my husband for that long good side, like a week, you know, and I wasn’t sure, and I didn’t want to put stress on him.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um and I remember like I had this little note in my planner That said, should I go to the tech show, yes or no, like it was I remember a week, I was kind of going back and forth on it, but ultimately, I decided to just go and take the leap and do it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I went up to Chicago and one of the seminars, that I took at this conference was called running a lean laufer and when I say lean I do not mean like on a budget, but you know, in the corporate world it’s the lean six.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Sigma method of.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, reducing waste and how do you make things as efficient as you can in process in processes and systems.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So the concept behind the seminar was basically about specializing.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, rather than doing some you know a lot of trees are more generalist and do a lot of different things, but the concept was specializing creating systems to have efficient processes.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And charging fixed fees that can be profitable, because you have the systems in place right, and this is a little bit foreign for a lot of lawyers.

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Jason Mefford: it’s very fun.

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Jason Mefford: Because they always do time time and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Time and material yes.

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Jason Mefford: Right it’s already.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s that way for CPA is for a lot of other professions as well right and it’s like you’re trading your trading dollars for hours for hours for dollars yeah okay.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And you know earlier in my career, I was interested in alternative fee billing and I had tried, you know.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Testing samples with clients here and there, but it really is hard, if you don’t specialize, and the reason is you don’t have the data to be able to collect to know.

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Chenise Iwamasa: how fast it takes and how profitable, you can be on matters, unless you are specializing in something where you’re doing it, you know enough.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So that kind of just sparked this thing in me where I was like you know it’s kind of made me up a little bit and and the speakers at this seminar had just authored a book on it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I went down to the you know the the area where you can there’s vendors and I purchased the book and I literally read it over the course of the next couple of days cover to cover and I just.

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Chenise Iwamasa: It basically sparked in me the vision of a law firm that I wanted to create that was specialized in commercial leasing that was serving small business tenants for the underdog in commercial real estate transactions um and just like it was one of those moments in your life, where.

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Chenise Iwamasa: It just every cell in my body was telling me that this is what I had to and I don’t I don’t know I felt like maybe there’s one or two times in my whole life that i’ve had that so I felt like I just had to.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Do it, even though it was scary, even though it may be, it didn’t make the most financial sense or you know, but I felt that strong undeniable compelling.

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Chenise Iwamasa: push to do this, and so literally on my plane ride home from Chicago I was you know just writing furiously and laid out my whole business plan I started having ideas and marketing my website, like all those things were just coming together like magic.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And the funny thing is my mom picked me up from the airport and you know starving because I didn’t get to eat on the plane.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So we stopped by Panda express on the way home to grab a dinner, and you know Panda express house blows a fortune cookies right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I cracked open my fortune cookie and the fortune was something along the lines of you are involved to embark on a business venture.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I was like right there, I was like okay that’s that’s just sealing the deal, for me, like, I know I have to do this right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um so after I would say about a couple of weeks I you know I did do my due diligence I did some research, I went to make sure this is for sure what I was going to do.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And then right away, I went in to tell my former law partner that you know, I was going to leave the practice and i’m going to go do this do this thing, and I remember.

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Chenise Iwamasa: him looking at me and saying it’s never going to work and he said, you know in Hawaii you have to do everything to survive, like you, can’t specialized it’s not going to work you’re you’re serving small business clients like you know, like what are you thinking.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I remember you know looking him back in the eye and just saying you know respectfully I disagree, like, I think.

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Chenise Iwamasa: there’s something here, and I think that it will bring me fulfillment to serve this Community, and so you know, he was very supportive and to his credit in in terms of law, you know i’ll support you, but I just don’t think it’s going to work.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I still get that you know so from when I see colleagues, I remember for up until a couple years after I went on my own I would bump into colleagues in downtown.

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Chenise Iwamasa: At the lunch hour and they would see you know it’s always a concern like there was a cool.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Okay, and are you getting enough work, you know, like just almost like PD kind of feeling and I would be like oh i’m happy i’m great you know but that’s definitely you know I think a lot of people in town i’ve heard through you know, like maybe don’t.

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Chenise Iwamasa: don’t get it, they don’t see why I would walk away from you know, having all of these established institutional corporate clients to serve small business.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because that’s there’s a couple of places that we can go with what you just said there.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right because it’s it’s.

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Jason Mefford: There is kind of that prestige.

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Jason Mefford: right that that always that always goes along with.

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Jason Mefford: Especially in professional services.

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Jason Mefford: People want to know who are your clients and and the external.

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Jason Mefford: places value on you, based on who your clients are yeah right oh you’ve got walmart as a client or i’m just using big names right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah no absolutely.

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Jason Mefford: And, and all of a sudden it’s like Oh well, I must be somebody important if that’s my client.

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Right.

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Jason Mefford: And, and so yeah it’s almost like people are kind of pitting you like oh porch Nice, you know she.

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Jason Mefford: She she hadn’t made and then.

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Jason Mefford: She.

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Jason Mefford: gave it up.

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Jason Mefford: It reminds me of that john Lennon song, you know watching the wheels.

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Chenise Iwamasa: mm hmm.

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Jason Mefford: I love that song, you know because it’s.

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Jason Mefford: It doesn’t matter what other people think.

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Jason Mefford: yeah it only matters what’s right for you right and so again i’m guessing that by following this path you have less stress.

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Jason Mefford: than you did before you felt more aligned than you did before.

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Jason Mefford: that’s where something in it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah no absolutely and I don’t want to also, I just want to be clear right like starting your own business and doing your own thing it’s still a lot of work so it’s not like it’s not a lot of work, but if there’s a different.

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Chenise Iwamasa: vibration, I feel like when you’re doing work that’s more aligned with who you are it’s like I have this excitement like I want to go to work on a Saturday morning to work on my business versus.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know before if I had to work late on a client matter it’s I go like I feel bad I will you know I want to be home with my kids are there’s that that.

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Chenise Iwamasa: conflict that you feel.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Where when you’re when you’re doing what you love it’s just like you feel like you’d like to walk and you, you know you want to work.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s why I think it’s you know, because you and I know as entrepreneurs as well right that that’s a lot of people that aren’t in that space they can understand because my wife still looks at me like it’s Saturday or Sunday, why are you working.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Because the fucking love, what I do.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s it’s they don’t understand right but, but even you don’t have to be an entrepreneur to still feel some of those same things right when you’re aligned, even if you’re working for somebody else or your you know, whatever it is, if you can find joy in what you’re doing right.

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Jason Mefford: 20% it doesn’t matter whether you’re a Chan other.

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Jason Mefford: or anything else right if you feel that alignment you feel that joy from it.

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Jason Mefford: Your life is totally totally different.

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Jason Mefford: Right and i’m guessing that this this probably had an impact to on your personal and your home life as well right going from the stress of the one job to now this I mean, are you had a different mom a different partner, you know as a as a result of that as well.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah I think so, you know it’s just that you, you are different you.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I think it’s also important for me to model to my children to write and I.

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Chenise Iwamasa: don’t want them to live their life and be stuck in a job for years and be unhappy you know I want them to see what it looks like.

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Chenise Iwamasa: To be able to create a career that you love and you know they come to the just this past Saturday I had to work on, you know i’m doing a migration of software, and so I was like I need to get some work done so we’re going to the office.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I just make it fun, you know so they hang out in my conference room they watch movies, they you know, bring all their things you like to draw in my office and they love it they they always eat subway because we have some way.

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Chenise Iwamasa: In my office downstairs and it’s like something that they get excited in the board to, so I think there’s always ways to you know show your children that joy to them, and I think that that’s what they will come to see, as you know, healthy and normal and all of that, for themselves.

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Jason Mefford: Well, actually, including them, you know, bringing them down to the office letting them play in the conference room.

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Jason Mefford: yeah you’re making memories.

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Jason Mefford: it’s your kids yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Right and and I think sometimes that’s where.

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Jason Mefford: You know i’ve seen it in my life in other professions right where you have to be a certain way in the profession right, oh no kids allowed in the office you know kind of stuff well why.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, right why can’t we do that and, and I think it, you know it makes memories, for you, it makes memories for them.

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Jason Mefford: You know as well, they see mom happy as well to right and that’s why it’s this this separation, that we have, or that we’re told we have to have between.

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Jason Mefford: Our profession or job or career and our family doesn’t need to be like this Chinese wall like a lot of people try to make it out to be right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Yes, I agree wholeheartedly yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think I wanted to go back to you know when you were in Chicago.

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Jason Mefford: And you had all these serendipitous events actually happen right, you said again, you know that particular session that you went to.

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Jason Mefford: About.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and again.

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Jason Mefford: Those are the kinds of sessions that most people don’t go to at the conferences, because they’re like what the hell Do I need.

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Chenise Iwamasa: For right.

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Jason Mefford: I just need a bill Maher an hour, but, but you you felt inspired to go to that session.

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Jason Mefford: When you sat through the sessions, and you started having kind of some hits what I call heads.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah no I call them.

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Jason Mefford: You know, you know you know what i’m talking about yeah I hear you and you started having some hits during during the session and then it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: Oh, they have a book, can you go and you get the book, can you read the book good and then you come back home, and you go to Panda and what’s your fortune cookie.

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Jason Mefford: You know it’s like it’s like all of these things line up and what I wanted to bring up because you said something to the effect of.

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Jason Mefford: You know these things don’t happen like that to that intensity very often in our lives and so those really are gifts.

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Jason Mefford: When they come along right, I mean and again for everybody that’s listening, you know you’ve you’ve probably had a few of those.

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Jason Mefford: That they may not have been career wise but think about you know, like when you met your partner or your spouse or you know you fell in love you know it’s like all of a sudden, it just feels like the stars align the fireworks go.

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Jason Mefford: You know, you can send you have a little pop you know.

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Jason Mefford: pop you know.

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Jason Mefford: And the kiss and everything, but those things that magic does happen in life right, but we have to be open to it, I mean again if you weren’t doing the things that you’d been doing if you hadn’t gotten your butt.

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Jason Mefford: To the to the conference you know and have been open to it, those things wouldn’t have happened so so when people have experiences like that in their life, what do you tell them.

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Chenise Iwamasa: That like you said to be open to it, but also be willing to take action right, so you know, a common thing that I dealt with that I think other people, probably do too is um my husband.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Is is a lot more risk averse you know he you know he we had to have those conversations, because he didn’t he didn’t like the idea at first, you know.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And he just thought is too risky and then what are you know we have a mortgage we have, like all this all all of the practical concerns that can.

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Chenise Iwamasa: hold you back right from leaning into these opportunities that the universe gives you and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And we had to have many conversations about that to get comfortable with how can it, how can we, how can we do this in a way that makes you feel comfortable with you know our finances and all those things.

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Chenise Iwamasa: As well as our life because it has any entrepreneur knows, like the first year business particularly is like you have another child right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So it’s a lot of time energy effort money all of that that.

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Chenise Iwamasa: is going to take your attention, and so you know with your family with your partner, how are you going to make it work um, so I would say don’t just don’t let resistance from someone necessarily let it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: prevent you from following that you know figure out a way there’s we there’s always a way.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well that’s why I wanted to go a little bit more, because you said don’t let the resistance, because you know again when when you have hits like that that are.

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Jason Mefford: Significant life changing kinds of things right there’s it’s change and all of us are uncomfortable with change, even those of us that think we handle change well we don’t handle change, as well as we think we do.

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Jason Mefford: Right, I mean that’s just.

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Jason Mefford: that’s just life right but, but I think it’s interesting because, again, you know you came home, you had that discussion with your husband obviously he’s going to have some concerns or some resistance from there, you talked about you know your your partner saying well it’ll never work.

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Jason Mefford: Right so anytime that we’re wanting to change or transform or do something different.

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Jason Mefford: there’s going to be people on the sidelines telling us that we’re not making the right mistake.

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Jason Mefford: or though we’re not making the right.

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Jason Mefford: Decision right we’re making a mistake it’s just like you were talking about at the beginning, you know with all your friends, you know when you would see them and they’d almost pity you like oh.

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Jason Mefford: boy or girl, you know.

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Jason Mefford: well.

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Jason Mefford: And I see a lot of lot of people that do this to where they choose to listen to what other people are saying, instead of what it feels like they’re supposed to do yeah and and so, then they never end up changing yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Which is you know.

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Jason Mefford: it’s a tough place to be right so so again, I mean when when when things like that come up, I mean, how do you how do you deal with it, because you dealt with that kind of resistance in your in your path as well.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah I would say, I had to work through it, you know how they say, like the only way around it is through it is really like I did feel all the fears as well, like any other person like I like isn’t going to fail, I don’t know it’s all all those things happened to, but I just kind of really.

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Chenise Iwamasa: What motivated me was that strong.

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Chenise Iwamasa: intuition that feeling that I couldn’t shake like literally I would ever went every time i’m on the road driving I have all these ideas which spark spark spark.

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Chenise Iwamasa: When I wake up in the middle of the night, having to write down notes on like different ideas and things I had it was I don’t know how to describe it, it just like all consuming where that’s all I thought about every second of the day, almost and i’m so when you have that level of.

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Chenise Iwamasa: velocity I guess in what’s coming is like I couldn’t I felt like I could not like, if I if I ignored it if I pushed to the side.

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Chenise Iwamasa: It would be one of the biggest regrets in my life, so I felt like even if there’s a risk of me feeling, even if I might not make money for a few months, or what whatever all the things that come with taking a leap like this, I felt like I had still had to do it.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s why that word that you regret that you do it, you know before you said that I was thinking you know how much of the time, do we regret.

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Jason Mefford: Because we felt like we were supposed to do something and we didn’t yeah right those those are the worst regrets in life as we get older is, you know that you hear people say things like why didn’t I take that chance you know why why didn’t I call that person back after the day.

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Jason Mefford: right they felt like my soul mate now i’m stuck with whoever right.

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Jason Mefford: Now that that’s ever happened to anybody right, but of course it has lots but there’s things like that right that that again when when those inflection points come.

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Jason Mefford: You know, I was actually just interviewing somebody else, and she used the term the chance of a lifetime.

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Jason Mefford: And I thought you know it’s it’s like what you’re talking about here right it’s like all of a sudden, all this stuff kind of came right, and you have the choice, are you going to take this chance of a lifetime.

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Jason Mefford: Or are you gonna let it go by.

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Jason Mefford: You chose to take it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And so, since we’re on this topic I want to give us a children’s book recommendation that aligns with what we’re talking about so shortly after.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I was in the process of you know, building my firm and designing everything, I came across this book on Amazon called What do you do with an idea.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I can’t recall the author’s name, but if you if you search it you’ll find it and it’s the most amazing book for adults and children alike.

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Chenise Iwamasa: about what happens when you have an idea and what you, what do you do with that idea and all the things that happened in your life.

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Chenise Iwamasa: That you know with whether people you know discourage you or you’re you’re ashamed of it, or you try to push it down for a little bit and all of that process, so I highly recommend anyone who’s going through this kind of journey or you know, trying to take a leap to to get that book.

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Jason Mefford: i’m going to go by, that but yes, yes, I mean there’s a lot of there’s a lot of wisdom and children’s books and a lot of well and to me that’s.

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Jason Mefford: that’s being open to some of the possibility right is that when you’re open to possibility little things that you would have just you know just put a gun right over you all of a sudden, have a lot deeper meaning.

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Jason Mefford: or it’s even something that you’ve heard.

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Jason Mefford: You know 100 times before, but all of a sudden, now that same phrase or that same song or whatever it is, takes on a on a whole new meaning.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah right.

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Jason Mefford: At that point, and so you know I think it’s interesting too, because, as you.

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Jason Mefford: You know, we talked about that a lot of times there’s people we go into professions, we spend years doing it.

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Jason Mefford: We don’t feel aligned and a lot of people just throw away right everything that they’ve done to to go do something else and i’m not saying that that’s.

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Jason Mefford: that’s wrong right but it’s like I could have you know I spent the last 30 some years doing what i’m doing and I could say screw it i’m gonna go be a macro may artists, for the rest of my life.

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yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, I can, and if that’s what I feel like i’m supposed to do, but I think it’s interesting you know again you didn’t throw out everything you’ve done but you made a little course correction.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and there were actually a couple of little corrections during your career to get you to where you are.

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Jason Mefford: So so maybe go there, a little bit because, again, I think a lot of times people think well.

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Jason Mefford: I tried, something it didn’t quite work out the way I thought I was going to so i’m not going to do it again, so how does because again it seems like from your story there, there were kind of these milestones are things that got you prepared for whatever the next thing was it was coming.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah and what’s funny too is you know now looking back in my career.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I don’t regret, being a litigator for a few years, because that informs my ability to advise my clients on contracts and track, because I know from firsthand experience what the litigation part looks like right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Whereas some attorneys who only did transactions and damn the litigation experience they actually don’t really know firsthand some of the stuff that happens in the litigation context so.

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Chenise Iwamasa: All of that helps me, be a better attorney in the type of law.

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Chenise Iwamasa: That i’m doing now, and the same thing, like when I went then to a broader real estate practice I got to learn all the things that I needed to do to be where I am today.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So it all kind of led me to where I am and one of the biggest things that you know happened was when I remember when I said I told my law partner.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I gave him lots of notice like I wanted to give him, five, six months notice that I could help him recruit you know new associates, you know train all of that.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So you know he knew we were we were working toward you know my leaving and about a month before I was set to leave, and I was already telling clients that i’m leaving all of that was underway.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I remember, I went to the office on a Monday morning and my office manager walked into my office and she said.

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Chenise Iwamasa: That my my my law partner had drowned the day before on Sunday why, who was kayaking out in the Bay.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And it was just.

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Chenise Iwamasa: The worst ball dropping at the worst time possible right like I just was like oh my gosh um and then I had maybe a few days of just crisis mode, I was just trying to you know figure out what to do try to figure out how to take care of our clients our staff or you know everyone.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And the first few days was you know kind of just on pure adrenaline where you’re just going going going, and I remember that Wednesday I you know called my husband on the way home, and I said, you know what i’m not going to come right home, I need some time.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So he’s like Okay, you know do what you have to do and I drove out to the Pier and I just sat in my car and I just cried like I just let it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I felt all the you know all the why me all the all that stuff um and then I picked myself up and then you know moved on, I created a plan I you know, took care of everything I need to take care of and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Everything turned out fine, so I spend the next like three months or so winding down the law practice transitioning our clients to other law firms but in all of that, you know even even that also.

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Chenise Iwamasa: challenged my decision to start my own law firm to because I had other law firms in town calling me offering me jobs.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Offering to merge our firms like there was all kinds of things going on right and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I you know I might have you know if I wasn’t as strong i’m in my belief of this vision, I could have just said.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Forget it i’ll just take that job at that other law firm or i’ll just you know, like there’s there’s also different directions that could have went.

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Chenise Iwamasa: But I still felt that strong.

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Chenise Iwamasa: feeling inside, and so I still pursued it and I like it wasn’t oh my God, why would you do that, like you have like a whole law firm all to yourself with all these big corporate clients why wouldn’t you just like you know, keep it.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I just did I I I really just need to do this thing that i’ve been.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know planning to do and when I look back, I really do believe that that whole crisis was a gift from the universe, because.

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Chenise Iwamasa: That was like an accelerated course.

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Chenise Iwamasa: In how to run a business, I mean.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Really, I, you know as a partner in a law firm I don’t think I fully appreciate it or understood all that goes into owning a business because you know our office manager took care of most of the stuff.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I you know I would be management decisions, but a lot of the day to day stuff was actually you know not in my what I was doing, I would just you know serving clients and then I getting my draw check and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So in that span of three months, like, I had to do with so many business financial legal all those other issues that prepared me.

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Chenise Iwamasa: better than I can imagine any other thing would have prepared me to be a business owner of my law practice now and so i’m very grateful for that gift, even though in the moment it was crazy like I thought i’m like oh my God, how many to do this right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um but, again, yet everything happens.

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Chenise Iwamasa: for a reason.

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Jason Mefford: yeah when everything happens for us.

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Jason Mefford: yeah because because again it’s the.

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Jason Mefford: As you were explaining that because, like you said, I mean it’s it’s it’s easy it’s convenient.

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Jason Mefford: would have been convenient for you, at that point to say okay forget my forget my dream forget my vision.

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Jason Mefford: you’re right i’ve got this law firm by myself why the heck wouldn’t I do this right, I mean it’s it’s.

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Jason Mefford: i’ve already got the clients blah blah blah blah blah right, and so, how much of the time, though, do we make those choices of convenience, instead of the choices of conviction.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah I love that.

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Jason Mefford: And you chose the conviction, no i’m i’m, this is what i’m committed to this is what i’m gonna do, but like you said you know again.

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Jason Mefford: I haven’t heard you play victim at all in any of this stuff that.

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Jason Mefford: we’ve been talking to right which is great, because so many of us end up going into that why me why is this happening now, and, unfortunately, a lot of times, while we’re going through it we don’t know yeah you just got to go through it.

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Jason Mefford: yeah like you just said, you know this having going through this with your with your partner dying gave you that crash course in owning your business that really.

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Jason Mefford: helped give you what you need for now right, but unless you had gone through that experience and i’m sure, while you were going through it, you weren’t sitting there going Oh, this is going to be so helpful later and i’m so.

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Chenise Iwamasa: you’re just landed on that is right.

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Jason Mefford: But but that’s that’s because so much of the time right it’s it’s that reflection afterwards, when we actually kind of understand that so that that.

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Jason Mefford: Steve Jobs Stanford commencement I don’t know if you his speech on that the one that really hit me where it was you know you can’t connect the dots until you turn around and look backwards.

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Jason Mefford: right and it was that way in his in his life in my life in your life right when you’re going through it.

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Jason Mefford: You can’t connect the dots because you’re still in the middle of it it’s the reflection and the learnings afterwards and looking back and going oh Now I understand that that makes a lot of sense right, and I think what’s interesting you know, for you that even.

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Jason Mefford: Who, you were in the fifth grade.

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Jason Mefford: and of what you wanted to do, and why you went into the law.

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Jason Mefford: you’re finally doing now.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Yes, after all these years.

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Jason Mefford: Years right it’s like it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: We know because because that’s why for myself i’ve kind of realized this like if we go back to who we were like 10 1112 1314 years old, that kind of timeframe.

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Jason Mefford: it’s like holy shit right it’s like, but then we become you know responsible teenagers go to college responsible adults everything else.

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Jason Mefford: But when we realize what we really wanted back and then it’s probably what we really want now yeah, and the reason why we don’t feel aligned is because we don’t feel like we can have what we wanted as a child oh that’s a childish thing.

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Jason Mefford: mm hmm right can have it, you got to be a responsible adult But what if you can do both yeah and I think it sounds like your evidence that you can do both yep.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yep absolutely and so that’s what I like in my current law practice I think i’ve incorporated more elements of who I am.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Even if it’s not the status quo, what you think of a stereotypical lawyer right, so I you know I am as much as I have the Left brain side to do people work, I have a.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Right brain side to to me as well you know I love i’ve always been i’ve grown up being a dancer i’ve been a performer a dance instructor.

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Chenise Iwamasa: i’ve taught children, adults, I also love you know, seeing design photography like all of that stuff lights me up.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So i’ve kind of brought some of that into my practice just in the way that I practice and the way I market, you know I do I designed my old commercial leasing infographics on my website.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Because I you know part of what I wanted to do is help make things simpler and easier to understand for people like la shouldn’t be this.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know, legally foreign language type of thing I wanted to simplify things and make it more accessible to more people.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And I knew, you know when I first started out people who said Oh, you need to have a log log like every lawyer, you have a law blog for marketing and I was kind of like man about that.

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Chenise Iwamasa: was like I really want to spend like you know time writing a law blog every week not really.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And do this, my target client who’s like small business owners would they even have any interest in that no absolutely not right.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I thought Okay, what can, what can I do differently to offer value and provide resources that can help them that they can actually use and.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So my idea was like hey i’m going to design infographics because then they hear they look at it and they get they get the point within like two seconds.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So I love doing that I, you know I that’s what I do in my spare time when I do photo books for my family and so i’ve translated some of what I do.

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Chenise Iwamasa: In that you know right brain hemisphere to into my work to make it more enjoyable along with you know what I do for social media and all of that stuff because it lights me up and being able to.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know that self expression piece, where you know a lot of lawyers that’s like not not a thing for lawyers.

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Jason Mefford: No it’s not a thing for lawyers have lots of attorneys over the years yeah it’s yeah both corporate and firm attorneys it’s yeah it’s usually it’s like shut off the personality.

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Jason Mefford: For the most part.

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Jason Mefford: it’s not just attorneys to do that either by the way, anyway.

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Chenise Iwamasa: yeah so even being able to you know.

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Chenise Iwamasa: To is who i’m serving to right so when you niche down, and I can choose that I want to serve small business owners that’s my people i’m the work to is just a lot more fulfilling you know I don’t know how to describe it other than.

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Chenise Iwamasa: It lights meal I you know I know i’m helping and they’re always so grateful and appreciative for the help and being able, for someone to explain things like I said.

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Chenise Iwamasa: in a simple way you know empowering them like my my whole approach and the way I practice law to with my clients is more educational because that’s kind of my style to I liked teaching.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So you know, some people have experiences with lawyers, where they don’t it’s like they’re matter but they don’t know what’s going on, because lawyer just takes the ball runs with it bubble blah blah blah and and they don’t know what’s going on there are left out.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And so my approach and style is I really try to educate them and empower them to make their own informed decisions for their business because you know you probably heard that saying.

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Chenise Iwamasa: If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime right, so I tell my clients, you know you are in a relationship with your landlord for.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Years oftentimes so I don’t want to just do it for you and you don’t know what your what your leases I want to make sure you understand you actively participate in the lease negotiation, so that you really understand what your obligations are what your rights are all that stuff.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And that’s kind of what I do in this current practice, which is not you know what I used to do before proceed on working with big corporate clients.

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Jason Mefford: And it seems like that’s you know, like you said it’s much more fulfilling for you, but also like you said it’s teaching people how to fish.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, right because because, again, but so many people, especially in professional services right they’re like nope i’m the expert.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and the only one that can do it right, because if.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I just just trust me.

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Jason Mefford: Well, or if I let them know how they how to do it then they’re not going to me my hourly rate.

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Jason Mefford: Right and so i’m sure that, for your clients that’s got to be very refreshing to write because, again, I know, having worked with and paid lots of attorneys.

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Jason Mefford: Over the years, right it’s like how much did that phone call just cost me that we didn’t need to have.

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Jason Mefford: You know kind of thing where.

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Jason Mefford: I really doubt your clients are feeling the same kind of way about you, because it’s not that way.

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Jason Mefford: yeah you know and you’re actually connecting with them as a human being, not as a transaction.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Yes, yes yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Wonderful wonderful wonderful stuff it’s a you know i’m really happy for you, that you’ve gotten to that point.

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Jason Mefford: You know where you do feel that alignment you’re happy you’re excited I mean it shows on your face and everything you do, you know as well that that’s.

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Jason Mefford: life’s too short to have a crappy job that we hate right so but but also realizing you don’t have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, sometimes all it takes is that little little switch right so for you that last one was just going from still doing real estate.

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Jason Mefford: Your law but it’s a different group that you’re serving yeah that lights you up and gives you gives you what you need so.

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Jason Mefford: Well, any any final things as well here, you know pieces of advice for things that we left off that you want to make sure that we get in.

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Chenise Iwamasa: I would just say to reiterate your point about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because I just think people sometimes.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Look at it so black and white right, so the example you gave was throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but on the other extreme there’s also people who just say well.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know i’m not going to follow my dream because that’s not realistic and I need to make money and I need to pay my children’s tuition so i’m just going to be unhappy in this job forever.

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Chenise Iwamasa: You know there’s so much space in between that where we can explore and we can maybe find something that, even though it may be, is not the ultimate you know endpoint it might get us a little bit closer to where we need to be to get to where we want to go.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and that’s a great point because, like you said, usually were so polarized.

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Jason Mefford: know if that’s a word polarization.

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Jason Mefford: polarizing you know have have.

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Jason Mefford: You know, because yeah I i’ve seen a lot of people that are that way.

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Jason Mefford: You know, especially, especially, for example, like immigrant families and other people, you know where it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: The parents, you know they work they work, really, really hard and I, you know it’s good enough for the mom you know kind of a thing because.

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Jason Mefford: they’re not necessarily doing what they want to do, but it’s because they feel like they have to provide or give something right, and so a lot of times again now, you can find plenty of joy in doing that.

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Jason Mefford: As well right it kind of depends on your mindset.

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Jason Mefford: But yeah like you said there’s so many possibilities between those two extremes that you just got to kind of work through and find.

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Jason Mefford: Those for you.

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Chenise Iwamasa: And just being open to exploring that possibility and that’s all yeah.

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Exactly.

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Jason Mefford: Wonderful well, thank you for this, because yeah like I said a lot of people need to hear this finally did you hear a lot of what we talked about today as well, too, I mean you know that goes for.

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Jason Mefford: Every day anyway right so.

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Jason Mefford: So thank you.

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Chenise Iwamasa: Nice and yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you for coming on you know if people that are listening happened to be in the white area, and there are a small business and need to reach out to you how’s The easiest way to reach to reach you.

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Chenise Iwamasa: um i’m on instagram so you know people can follow me on instagram at siebel law Hawaii so my law firm is evil law.

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Chenise Iwamasa: So people at the law Hawaii you can DM me or you can just Google me you find me on Google.

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Jason Mefford: Just type in your name and it’s amazing what you can find.

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Jason Mefford: Anything on Google.

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Jason Mefford: Well, thank you like, I said that your story is great and it’s something that everybody who just listen to this there’s a lot of stuff in this that will help you have a better life, be more aligned be happier, so thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time.

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Jason Mefford: To record with me today.

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Jason Mefford: yay Thank you.

Influence is a big part professional success, and many people conflate it with manipulation. Because Influence is not a negative thing, becoming an influential person comes from a place of goodness within ourselves.

Building success and happiness is rooted in influence. Whether it be you influencing others, or others influencing you.

So tune in to today’s episode with our special guest Brian Ahearn and learn how to build more fulfilling connections with others.

Learn more and contact Brian at: https://www.influencepeople.biz/ where you will also be able to find details about his new book “The Influencer: Secrets to Success and Happiness” discussed in this episode, or you can find it through Amazon.

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Well, you know whether you realize it or not, pretty much everything that we do influences people in one way or another.

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Jason Mefford: The problem is that most people don’t have the skills or understanding of how to influence correctly, which often leads to relationship strain and challenges.

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Jason Mefford: So i’m excited for today’s episode i’ve got my friend, Brian a horn with me and we’re going to be talking more about influence, but some practical things that you can take away and actually improve your life have more success and actually be happier to so with that let’s roll that episode.

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Jason Mefford: All right, Brian well welcome my friend i’m excited to have you back.

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Brian Ahearn: it’s exciting to be back Jason.

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Brian Ahearn: that’s already been fun talking to you before you hit the record button.

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Jason Mefford: I know it’s like well i’m one of the other podcasts I do we used to do.

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Jason Mefford: Where we just record from the beginning and so there’d be a whole bunch of like crazy outtakes and things like that that we would do, and sometimes I feel like ah, we should have hit record before that was some really good stuff.

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Jason Mefford: But you know i’m i’m excited to have you back because we, we have a lot of the same kind of passion, where the same kind of guys and what we’re trying to accomplish in this world to and helping people.

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Jason Mefford: In so you know what you talk about what you’re an expert in is.

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Jason Mefford: amazing and it’s something that everybody needs to know right so so maybe just give a quick quick background on yourself, because you know again if people don’t know you they should know you and there’s there’s some serious reasons why they should so.

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Brian Ahearn: Well, I spent more than 30 years in the insurance industry and during that time came in contact with the work of Dr Robert cialdini the most cited living social psychologist in the world on the science of ethical influence.

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Brian Ahearn: And I was so intrigued by it back in the early 2000s that I pursued getting certified by him and i’m one of only a dozen people in the world.

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Brian Ahearn: who holds the child eenie method certified trainer designation now and it was almost three years ago that I left my corporate role to pursue influence people full time.

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Brian Ahearn: Where I now work with individuals and organizations speaking training, coaching consulting and writing about the science of influence and how they can bring it into their daily lives and benefit from it.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so I just want to recap something, because I think sometimes when we say things people don’t get it the first time.

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Jason Mefford: So everybody who’s listening right, the reason you need to listen to Brian you’ve probably heard of Robert cialdini.

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Jason Mefford: And the books influence in pre suasion right, you probably heard of that you might have even read the books well Brian is one.

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Jason Mefford: Did you hear that a dozen people in the world who’s actually been trained and certified by Bob so the guy knows what he’s talking about and.

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Jason Mefford: So i’m excited to have you back, because I know you’re you’re in the process of releasing a new book right so.

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Jason Mefford: So tell us a little bit about that book because I want to get in and talk about some of the characters you wrote this book in a different way.

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Jason Mefford: To than what you’ve done with your previous book so kind of explain a little bit about that and then let’s get in and and talk about some of the characters and some of the stories and learnings that we can get from this.

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Brian Ahearn: Well, the book is called the influencer with the subtitle secrets to success and happiness it’s really a business parable So my first book was a business psychology book influence people.

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Brian Ahearn: The second book, I came out with persuasive selling for relationship driven insurance agents very specific market and very specific theme sales.

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Brian Ahearn: And I knew that there are some people who won’t pick up a psychology book and some who won’t pick up a sales book.

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Brian Ahearn: But the genre of business parables is really, really popular, so I thought, if I take a stab at this, I might be able to hit a whole new audience that never would.

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Brian Ahearn: Think about reading a book about influence and yet it’s so important for our professional success and personal happiness, so that was the genesis of the idea and I have to say Jason that it’s the first time I really ever tried to write in a story format.

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Brian Ahearn: I mean, most of the time i’m writing things that are pretty technical and science related.

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Brian Ahearn: So this was a lot of fun felt a little bit like God kind of.

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Brian Ahearn: control the destiny of these character, create you create the characters yeah and you live out their lives.

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Brian Ahearn: And, and I knew I was onto something good, because my wife, I had downloaded the book into an APP I have, and I was listening to some of it with my wife and then I overheard her later saying.

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Brian Ahearn: It can’t believe it brian’s writing a book and it’s kind of like a novel and it’s it’s really good well.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and knowing your wife, she probably wouldn’t tell you that to your face, but you got to hear it, which is great right.

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Brian Ahearn: Sure yeah you see the Facebook post, so your listeners may not know, but you are 100% right.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think it’s you know because again there’s.

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Jason Mefford: there’s the nerds like you and me that we we do we read psychology books, we read these scientific studies and other stuff and we.

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Jason Mefford: We see we understand, but, most people don’t right and so yeah this business parable idea of actually.

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Jason Mefford: Showing people some real life situations and how influence works, because I think there’s there’s some some misconceptions that maybe we just hit at the beginning, here, and then we get into talk more about the characters.

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Jason Mefford: Is a lot of people think they’re influencing people when they’re really trying to manipulate or coerce people right so, so there is a big difference between those two.

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Jason Mefford: The other one is kind of around the fact that people don’t realize that everything we do is influencing someone in some way right and and a lot of the times it’s not the way we want it to be.

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Jason Mefford: Right right so so maybe let’s let’s hit on this kind of explain to people what is, what does influence actually really look like and how is that different from from how so many people think what they’re doing is but it’s really more manipulation.

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Brian Ahearn: Okay, great I when when I talk about influence and I add more specifically talk about persuasion.

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Brian Ahearn: I always ask people you know what’s your definition of persuasion and I usually will hear most of the comments revolving around changing how somebody thinks or feels about something.

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Brian Ahearn: And that might be a good first step Jason but it’s not always enough and, frankly, sometimes it’s not even needed.

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Brian Ahearn: Because I look at persuasion and I use aristotle’s definition the art of getting someone to do something that they wouldn’t ordinarily do if you didn’t ask.

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Brian Ahearn: So, if you think about that you know changing how somebody behaves based on how you communicate that’s really what it comes down to.

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Brian Ahearn: If you change how somebody thinks or fields that can be great.

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Brian Ahearn: But sometimes that’s not enough mean we’ve probably all had conversations with people where we’ve shared information we’ve changed how they thought or felt about something, but it didn’t translate into any kind of behavior change.

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Brian Ahearn: And quite often what we’re looking for is for somebody to do something so that’s how I focus on persuasion.

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Brian Ahearn: Now, if we can change how somebody thinks and feels and the beauty of that is sometimes it will take on the lasting impact.

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Brian Ahearn: Because if it changes how I think and feel, and then I start behaving in accordance with that it can change my core identity, and then I will more easily.

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Brian Ahearn: Live to that core identity so that’s how I can take on a lasting change so for me that’s persuasion, and I think the difference between.

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Brian Ahearn: What we talked about when we’re talking about influencing people and ethically persuading people is.

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Brian Ahearn: The difference between that and manipulation there’s three things that are core and and readers will see this when they read the book and go through the story and the main character john talks about this.

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Brian Ahearn: The first thing is that we always have to be truthful and Jason when I say truthful i’m not just talking about telling the truth we never hide the truth, either.

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Brian Ahearn: Because if there’s information that’s material to the decision and we’re withholding it, and then we try to say, well, you didn’t ask.

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Brian Ahearn: that’s not defensible nobody’s going to look at us as an ethical individual when they said you knew that and you didn’t share it.

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Brian Ahearn: But what we learn when we understand the influence processes, I can share some information that might actually work against my case.

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Brian Ahearn: But if I do it the right way I can gain credibility as an honest broker and that may take me even further, because.

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Brian Ahearn: Then I have an opportunity to continue and talk about the strengths and I gained this credibility, where someone says.

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Brian Ahearn: You know, he might not have had to tell me that, but the fact that he did I trust him, and so it gives more weight to the things that I share beyond that so that’s number one, we have to be truthful.

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Brian Ahearn: number two is, we only use psychology that’s natural to the situation and I think your listeners will will understand this one.

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Brian Ahearn: scarcity, that that feeling that we want something more if we think that it’s rare or going away.

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Brian Ahearn: will have scarcity, is not really available in the situation we don’t falsely claim that it is just because it might motivate people to take action.

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Brian Ahearn: that’s not being ethical to use psychology that’s not even present in the situation.

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Brian Ahearn: And then the third thing that we look for is creating a situation that’s mutually beneficial and the way the character explains it in the book is he says, good for you good for me then we’re good to go.

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Brian Ahearn: If we both really believe that we’re better off from the interaction and i’ve been truthful in terms of.

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Brian Ahearn: My honesty and sharing information and i’m only using psychology that’s natural in the situation, I can feel comfortable in terms of my being an ethical influencer and not manipulating people to do just something that I want.

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Jason Mefford: yeah I think I think that you know i’ve i’ve always kind of thought of it as a third one, but the but the other ones, about being truthful completely truthful.

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Jason Mefford: And then only what’s natural a situation I think it’s important to write because because, again, sometimes people will take those you know six or seven it depends on how you look at it right that the Bob kind of came up with and they’ll try to do all of them, but all of them aren’t relevant.

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Jason Mefford: And like you said, and so, if we’re trying to.

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Jason Mefford: scare somebody or use something like scarcity when scarcity doesn’t isn’t really in thing related to it that would actually erode our credibility right because people are smart they’re going to know.

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Jason Mefford: that’s not really true right.

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Brian Ahearn: yeah an example would be if you went to the store and you’re looking at something and a sales person says.

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Brian Ahearn: Oh, this is the last one now, this also borders on just lying but specific to the to the psychology they say Oh, this is the last one.

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Brian Ahearn: Which is scarcity, and it makes you want that thing more, because if you don’t buy it somebody else is going to get it.

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Brian Ahearn: So if you make that purchase and you go back to the store the next day.

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Brian Ahearn: And you see that item out again, or you hear that salesperson use the same line on somebody else you’re going to feel like you, are manipulated.

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Brian Ahearn: You made a decision, because you thought, if you didn’t in the moment you were going to lose the opportunity, but the reality was you would never you’re never going to lose the opportunity yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well, in the last one about you know, good for you good for me good to go I think that’s where you know, Adam grant in one of his books talks about takers matters and givers right, and I think so so much of the time you know it’s like what is our intention behind what we’re doing.

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Jason Mefford: So if we’re influencing somebody it should be mutually beneficial right we’re not the snake oil salesman the slick used car salesman of.

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Jason Mefford: just trying to get some sucker to buy this lemon of a car right that’s good for us.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s not necessarily good for them right, so a lot of it seems to kind of go back to the intention of Why are you doing this, and even in sales right so i’m not i’m not bad mouth and sales, I mean.

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Jason Mefford: But, but a great salesperson realizes right that it’s in your best interest to have this whatever it is right, they know that your life is going to be better, as a result of it.

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Jason Mefford: And it seems like they’re thinking about you and your best interest yes they’re going to get the Commission it’s going to be good for them, but if it’s not good for you that’s kind of when they cross the line I think right.

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Brian Ahearn: Exactly and there’s nothing wrong with a salesperson earning a Commission in when they sell their product or service as long as they know that it’s not just benefiting them by Commission but it’s also helping the other person.

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Brian Ahearn: And in the book and throughout the story, the main character john early in his career spending time with the salesperson learns one of these keys to success and happiness is the principle of liking.

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Brian Ahearn: That not just getting people to like you so they’ll do what you want, but coming to like the people that you’re with.

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Brian Ahearn: Because once that happens, the more I get to know and, like you, Jason The more I watch your best and that’s what really starts naturally removing manipulation from the equation because.

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Brian Ahearn: I know you would never manipulate your friends and I wouldn’t manipulate my friends, so I always encourage people do what you can.

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Brian Ahearn: To make friends with the people that you’re interacting with and so through the story format john begins to learn this first and foremost, as he travels with a really seasoned.

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Brian Ahearn: salesperson who it’s so apparent to him as a new recruit in this company that wow these clients really seem to like this individual.

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Brian Ahearn: And so, he starts, asking them what is it about your relationship with them, why do, why do they like you so much, and then the guy tells them I don’t do anything to get people to like me.

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Brian Ahearn: Of course john presses a little more, and he goes, you must be doing something, and he goes nope never tried to get anybody to like me I just do everything I can to like my clients and then it’s like a light bulb come on moment for john like wow that makes all the sense in the world.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, so you heard to use the word light bulb to right so everybody rewind well you can’t rewind right now but.

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Jason Mefford: So will tell tell you again right, one of the keys to success and happiness is learning to, like the other people.

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Jason Mefford: Right it’s not so much about them liking, you and trying to be a different person right I love I love how that salesperson said that I never tried to get anybody to like me.

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Jason Mefford: I tried to like them right and and so showing up, you know as we are because, because I think that’s something that sometimes people think, I have to be somebody different.

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Jason Mefford: In order for people to like me and so we’re putting on this false front we’re lying we’re feeling bad about you know who I really am i’m not really showing up as I as who I really am right and it’s it’s so.

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Jason Mefford: That is a great great piece of advice.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I.

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Brian Ahearn: Love him Jason full I.

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Jason Mefford: know you are that’s why I love you man.

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Jason Mefford: Well, so so let’s get into let’s talk about some of the characters because we’ve already started, you know you said john is kind of the the narrator through this the main character.

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Jason Mefford: And, and you know he has interactions with different people right so so let’s talk about you know, maybe some of the characters that are in here and.

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Jason Mefford: And some of the some of the lessons because again what I love that you did with this is.

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Jason Mefford: you’re trying to show like real life examples that we all experience right and so that’s why this book is not for insurance sales people or or the psychology is for all of us right because we’re all.

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Jason Mefford: living with this we’re all in relationship with other people and the better we can do at that right, the more success and happiness we’re actually going to have.

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Brian Ahearn: Here well in the book the character, the we follow the the life of this individual john Andrews and he goes to college and, like many of us he.

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Brian Ahearn: takes classes and one of them really seems to resonate with him his freshman year and it’s just a site, one on one class where he’s introduced.

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Brian Ahearn: To a little bit of this psychology and then, like most college kids he promptly forgets it when he goes home for the summer and the next three years of school.

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Brian Ahearn: But when he gets out into the into the work world and he starts his career he starts remembering some of what he learned and he begins to put these pieces together as he meets these individuals now i’ll tell your listeners that.

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Brian Ahearn: Almost every person in the book ultimately is someone that I know in real life and I learned some tremendous things from, and I was able to say oh that’s.

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Brian Ahearn: Really, this particular principle that’s what I really am taking away from my relationship with them so i’ll give you one example.

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Brian Ahearn: In the book john as he is traveling through new Mexico and his sales job he meets an individual name out.

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Brian Ahearn: Our is running a family practice medical facility and john notices that these people seem to really be connected almost like family, so we asked some about it over lunch.

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Brian Ahearn: And what Al tells them really surprises john l tells them that he is alcoholic and and john’s like I never met anybody who is alcoholic or recovering alcoholic and.

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Brian Ahearn: And al’s assuring him it’s Okay, not to worry, but what he teaches them is the principle of unity that Robert cialdini talks about.

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Brian Ahearn: and unity is about shared identity that it’s easier for us to say yes to those who are of us have our tribe, so to speak.

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Brian Ahearn: And what what john learns from Allah and Allah is a real person that I actually learned this from.

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Brian Ahearn: In the story Al reveals to him that most of the people who are working for him are recovering alcoholics.

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Brian Ahearn: And that there’s this deep bond that if you if you are recovering alcoholic you can look at another alcoholic.

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Brian Ahearn: recovering and know where they are and what they’re going through that other people can’t really understand.

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Brian Ahearn: And so that mutual deep connection and affection, that they have for each other that’s what john was observing that’s why they were so close.

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Brian Ahearn: And so, through the course of the conversation over lunch it really drops from his head to his heart that he now understands at a deep level what this principle is because he’s seen it play out in front of his eyes.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s it’s interesting because, as you bring that up you know there, there is that.

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Jason Mefford: Fraternity brotherhood you know sisterhood right what well whatever sort of a thing that we when we feel that shared identity with somebody else right and so yeah in that instance recovering alcoholics they understand they get it right.

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Jason Mefford: But I think what’s interesting, and so I wanted to ask you this is but doesn’t that also mean that we have to be.

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Jason Mefford: in a position to share a little bit about us which may feel a little vulnerable in order to have some of those unity connections right.

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Jason Mefford: Because yeah in that instance okay recovering alcoholic or you know I know there’s there’s a there’s a they make Tortilla chips and stuff like that, here in La they hire a lot of.

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Jason Mefford: People out of the criminal justice system.

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Jason Mefford: Right people who’ve come out of prison jail.

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Jason Mefford: For something a lot of people won’t hire them because of that they specifically do that because they’re trying to help rehabilitate so it it’s got that same kind of a feeling to it but.

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Jason Mefford: In order for us right to find our tribe don’t, we have to actually open up and share a little bit more about who we actually are even when it’s something that we might be embarrassed about like hey i’m a recovering alcoholic right some people might be ashamed or embarrassed about that.

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Brian Ahearn: yeah if you if you don’t find that out about somebody, then it will probably be up to them to be authentic and feel comfortable sharing that.

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Brian Ahearn: My friend owl, who is a real person that this individual in the book is based on.

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Brian Ahearn: did just that it was over 30 years ago when I had just started with the insurance company that i’m no longer with and I was about six weeks into.

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Brian Ahearn: My job there, and I get a call from our and and we start this conversation, and he basically says look if.

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Brian Ahearn: If you’ve been looking at any of my work, and you have questions about it, I got to be up front with you, I just got out of six weeks of.

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Brian Ahearn: Alcohol rehab and i’m on the road to recovery and and i’m taking the steps and and I just was so blown away by his honesty and we formed a deep connection that here we are more than 30 years later and i’m hopefully going to see him in just over a week when i’m out.

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Brian Ahearn: traveling some, but it was amazing to see his recovery and to see how he is now helping people.

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Brian Ahearn: And so that’s that’s what I learned from him but it’s it did start with him being authentic about here’s who I am, and this is what’s going on with me.

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Brian Ahearn: And what I found to Jason is when i’m that way with people, they naturally start opening up it’s kind of the reciprocation the rule for reciprocity that when you are very self revealing it gives people freedom to feel like they can be revealing with you in a trusted way.

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Jason Mefford: yeah yeah and again it said you got to give before you get.

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Jason Mefford: Right from from the reciprocity side, but I think it’s you know it also then seems like it’s incumbent upon us.

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Jason Mefford: As maybe the other side of that right, that when people share something about themselves that we need to be curious about that we need to ask about it, and especially if if there’s.

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Jason Mefford: You know, things that that you know, maybe come up so so that that we we go down that path, I guess, is what i’m saying, and the reason i’m thinking about this, as somebody that I.

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Jason Mefford: didn’t know you know it was our first time of actually having a video call, where I was getting to know this person better and it just came up right in in.

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Jason Mefford: In our discussion about some of my kids and the fact that two of my kids are adopted through foster care.

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Jason Mefford: And I don’t even know how that came up in our discussion, but all of a sudden, I saw her eyes perk up and she said, did you just say that you had kit you were a foster parent and I said yeah and she said, I was a foster child.

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Jason Mefford: Right so it’s like all of a sudden it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t even know how we got there.

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Jason Mefford: Right right, but the fact that she that I shared that, for whatever reason, made her share that now we have that unity, or that deeper connection that’s kind of what you’re talking about right.

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Brian Ahearn: Right and and that’s what we talked about shared identity, it goes much deeper than having a.

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Brian Ahearn: something in common, or something similar, like cheering for the same team, you know, there can be close knit miss with with fans and certain things like that, but.

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Brian Ahearn: You know her reaction to what you shared you know was deep in her core and her self identity and so it’s touching part of your identity to that you can have.

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Brian Ahearn: This conversation that very few other people are going to understand from the perspective of being the Foster parent and being the Foster child so that’s a brilliant example.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and I, and I think it’s you know again it’s the the The more that we can open up and share.

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Jason Mefford: Right, the more we can have these connections and ultimately that’s what people want right so.

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Jason Mefford: So, again folks you can choose to like wall yourself off and not let anybody know anything about yourself, but if you want these deeper connections with other people you’ve got to be willing to share.

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Jason Mefford: Right.

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Jason Mefford: And I think you know i’ve seen this in in some of the different you know coaching programs other things that i’m in myself.

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Jason Mefford: And I remember one of my coaches saying you know what what you think is most personal is most general, meaning that there’s a lot of other people that have gone through some of these same things that you might be embarrassed about.

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Jason Mefford: You know a lot of other people have done that, too, I think the me to movement showed that right in a big way on social media that whole there’s a lot of women who have gone through some similar kinds of things right so.

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Jason Mefford: yeah Al sounds like a great guy.

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Brian Ahearn: He is he is he’s a wonderful guy and and you know from all the stories that I heard the other thing I remember learning from him to his I told him one day we were talking about faith and that’s a big part of a.

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Brian Ahearn: And I said, you know I said i’ve heard all the stories, I mean i’ve heard all the stories about you know chasing women and wild nights and all that stuff and I said but.

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Brian Ahearn: The only guy that i’ve ever known is sober owl and I said I really think that’s how God sees us that he doesn’t forget what’s happened.

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Brian Ahearn: But he sees us as who we are, in him, and at this point, and again I never forgot that that revelation for me and he didn’t either, and it was conversations like that that kept us close knit for all these years, even though we live geographically pretty far apart.

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Jason Mefford: yeah it was that in intimacy.

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Jason Mefford: You actually had by sharing those kinds of things with each other.

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Jason Mefford: Right now and again the faith, the faith side of it again that was something that was common between both of you, and you could understand that, but.

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Jason Mefford: I think, to as you, as you say that it’s it’s an important thing too, because I know the tagline on your book, you know secrets to success and happiness.

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Jason Mefford: You know that you just shared another one to write with people and they probably didn’t even realize it is the past doesn’t exist anymore.

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Jason Mefford: Right, so why beat yourself up about it, you know again if you have if you’re a person of faith God sees you as you are now right and all of us should see.

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Jason Mefford: each other and see ourselves.

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Jason Mefford: exactly as we are now.

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Brian Ahearn: And something i’ll say this this isn’t a book, but you know we joked about we’ll see where this conversation goes we didn’t know probably going here.

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Brian Ahearn: a really good friend of mine defined intimacy this way into me see meaning i’m gonna let you see into me, that is my intimacy for other people.

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Brian Ahearn: And I think that when we take that step, and it can be a little scary, but when we take that step that usually.

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Brian Ahearn: reciprocation usually comes back where people again feel comfortable like wow you’re revealing something about yourself, and I can feel confident trustworthy that I can do the same with you, and now we have connection.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and and it’s one of those two where so many people want intimacy in their life.

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Jason Mefford: But they’re not willing to be intimate with themselves or with the other person because, like you said, we have to share something.

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Jason Mefford: Personal about ourselves, and again it’s not about over sharing or anything like that, but, but there are those certain things that will connect us together.

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Jason Mefford: and, obviously, when you have that kind of a connection with people you have more of an influence over them because they trust you they get you.

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Jason Mefford: They realize right that that’s that that third one that you talked about is mutually beneficial right.

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Jason Mefford: You know I know we’re friends and I know that you’re never going to say or do anything to me that wouldn’t be in my best interest exactly even, even if I might not understand it at first right like if i’m doing something stupid and you’re like Jason pull your head out of your ass.

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Jason Mefford: I know brian’s coming from a good place in telling me to pull my head out.

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Jason Mefford: Right he’s not he’s not doing it to try to beat on me he’s doing it to try to help me because he loves me and he knows me and we’re friends.

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Jason Mefford: Right.

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that’s all.

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Jason Mefford: Alright well what are some of the other characters that you’d like to talk about so we can we can learn some more.

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Jason Mefford: Of these secrets.

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Jason Mefford: Like I said.

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Brian Ahearn: So there’s another character in the book and and in the book his nickname is Bud beauty and he is modeled after a friend of mine, whose nickname is pud pod and.

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Brian Ahearn: Most people.

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Brian Ahearn: Probably don’t hear that nickname and but.

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Brian Ahearn: In the book john and his wife abigail they move in beside.

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Brian Ahearn: As neighbors to Bud and and they start to realize, something that man this guy.

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Brian Ahearn: he’s like always helping everybody in the neighborhood and you always seem so happy, in doing so.

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Brian Ahearn: And so john has a conversation with one day after they’re done cutting the grass and they just got a beer and they’re talking and and he and he brings that up to him and he says that he notices he seems to get more joy.

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Brian Ahearn: Out of seeing his friends happy than his own happiness, I mean he just like he’s pulling for them even more than he’s pulling for himself.

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Brian Ahearn: And then Bud starts to reveal he’s like well I learned a long time ago it’s better to give than receive and.

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Brian Ahearn: In that the reward when I give is the joy that I get and then he says, and I started to realize.

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Brian Ahearn: my joy can be unlimited by the ability for my for me to give and help people and then john is like taking back and he’s like did you grow up in church and he says no, and he goes but that’s better than any pastor i’ve ever heard.

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Brian Ahearn: Say say that and and then the guys joking about well, I think I like Scotch too much to be a pastor.

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Jason Mefford: You need both buddy my friend.

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Brian Ahearn: My friend he enjoys his drink and and he loves life and you can’t help, but having fun when you’re around them, and I really did learn that because.

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Brian Ahearn: One one year we were out in California and my friend pud his daughter is getting married.

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Brian Ahearn: And Jane my wife really wanted to play Torrey pines we were down in San Diego and she said, I still want to play that because they played the US open there and.

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Brian Ahearn: So my friend is like what time do you need to be at the chorus because I got a car, and she said, we probably need to be there by 630 okay be downstairs at 545 and and true to word, he was there and and she got on and i’m watching him and he.

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Brian Ahearn: He just seemed happier for Jane than even she was to get to play.

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Brian Ahearn: And that’s such a rare quality and anyway in the book this guy Bud brings that to life and again john so john leaseholder that and he starts to realize, too, that you know what.

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Brian Ahearn: By by giving and helping my joy is unlimited and so i’ve learned that, from my friend, and now I can share that with other people, and hopefully they’ll get touched in the same way that I was when I learned that.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think it’s you know that’s that’s one of those.

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Jason Mefford: Life lessons that.

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Jason Mefford: Often we never.

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Jason Mefford: We never learn, or we learn too late in life right because you know.

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Jason Mefford: i’m no different than anybody else I mean there’s a lot of times in my life when i’m all about me, even though I think.

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Jason Mefford: i’m about you know, helping or serving a lot of times when i’ve done things I realized after the fact, and little embarrassed about it is that will was my intention really in the right place or was, I still thinking about what’s Jason going to get out of this.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right and it’s that point when you can when you can switch that you know, like the character Bud does.

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Jason Mefford: That if you’re really happier and looking for other people’s success and helping them.

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Jason Mefford: Their does it becomes unlimited.

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Jason Mefford: Right, because you can have the fancy private jet you can have the Rolls Royce those things at the end of the day after you got them they don’t really mean much.

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Jason Mefford: yep, but these relationships, it sounds like.

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Brian Ahearn: Unless you can take those good things that you’ve gotten and you can share them with people so that they can say wow i’ve.

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Brian Ahearn: never been on a private jet or i’ve never been on a rolls and thank you so, and now you are you’re giving to create that happiness for people in, hopefully, you can step back and say you know.

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Brian Ahearn: Thank you, Lord that I got this this rolls whatever that nice thing is and that other people who might not have had an opportunity, get to share in this with me.

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Jason Mefford: yeah because that’s that’s where again it’s but by yourself, not a lot of fun.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but when your friends around you and yeah I would love to have a private jet maybe someday I will write and i’ll say hey pilot go out and pick up Brian.

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Brian Ahearn: And you know, having relationship with people is important too, because you know when I was out in California, a couple years ago and we had an opportunity to to me you got to meet some of my friends, but you got to meet Jane.

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Brian Ahearn: And for all the joking that I do on Facebook about her and it’s all in good nature and it makes her laugh too, but I always tell people, and this is the god’s honest truth.

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Brian Ahearn: Anything I do is better when she’s there because I feel like I can be myself.

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Brian Ahearn: Most authentically because nobody gets me like she does and so all that banter that we have and sometimes it makes people’s eyes go why like, why did you say that.

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Brian Ahearn: And she starts laughing, but I just feel like I can be so free around her so it doesn’t matter if i’m hanging out with the guys or whatever i’m doing.

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Brian Ahearn: I love having her because it just makes it better, and I think that when people have relationships like that, then you don’t want to just be off by yourself, you want to be around people, because your joy gets magnified by their presence.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and the comfort and the ease that comes from it right because, like you said you don’t have to put up any pretenses.

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Jason Mefford: You can just be your authentic real self she gets you she understands she knows your heart.

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Jason Mefford: Right, and again I mean yeah you guys have the joking back and forth she gives it just as much as you do right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so it’s it’s but it’s it’s Those are the kinds of relationships that we’re trying to develop right and what’s what’s interesting again is yes.

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Jason Mefford: All the psychological you know all the scientific research that has gone into you know what does it take to influence people well, those are also the same things.

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Jason Mefford: For us to have better relationships with the people around us right, I mean that’s kind of what i’m hearing from from this book as well right it’s not it’s not necessarily about influencing people to make a sale this just makes us happier and houses live a better life yeah.

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Brian Ahearn: yeah you don’t do it for the reward but you do end up getting a reward you know that you don’t help people so that you’ll get something, but you do end up getting something and it’s not the tangible it’s that it’s that.

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Brian Ahearn: Knowledge inside of how good it feels to be that giver and to help and if more people did that I think we’d have a lot less problems in this country rather than where we are right now, with so many things.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah and that’s what i’ve heard a few people say you know when you when when I thank them.

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Jason Mefford: They say no, thank you and at first it’s kind of like what what are you talking about you did me a service right, I mean i’m appreciative for it right, thank you for doing that.

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Jason Mefford: But the people who get it they’re like no, thank you, because without you and me, being able to serve and do that to help you I wouldn’t have gotten yeah I they they feel like they get more out of it.

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Jason Mefford: than what I got out of it.

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Brian Ahearn: yeah so let me i’m going to share something that’s not in the book but it’s so relevant to to what you’re saying.

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Brian Ahearn: I got back on the road not too long ago I was in a another city.

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Brian Ahearn: And one night I didn’t have plans to have dinner with somebody so I was going to sit down at the bar there’s only two seats available one guy is sitting in between the two seats and and.

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Brian Ahearn: It looked like he had some kind of disability, I mean the way he was moving the way he was talking and truthfully and I know this isn’t the right attitude, but truthfully I was like.

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Brian Ahearn: I want to sit here do I want to get into this conversation I wish Jane or abigail were here because they do work with people with disabilities.

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Brian Ahearn: Jane plays golf with the blind man and abigail is an interpreter for the Deaf and that’s so out of my comfort zone.

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Brian Ahearn: But I felt like a little prompting and I believe was God and I sat down and started having a conversation with this guy and turned out, he wasn’t had no disabilities, he just was really, really drunk I mean.

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Brian Ahearn: Really drunk.

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Brian Ahearn: And I won’t go into his situation, but I sat there for hours and had a great conversation with him.

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Brian Ahearn: And I said hey I really enjoyed talking to you here’s my card, and if you want to connect after this feel free to Well he did he connected with me on on Facebook and he started messaging me.

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Brian Ahearn: Later, and we ended up having a conversation, a few weeks later and and he you know revealed some things about you know where he was at in life.

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Brian Ahearn: And, and he said, why did you choose to talk to me and I said well i’m gonna be honest with you, I didn’t really want to because feeling this prompting and and.

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Brian Ahearn: And I said, but you know what I said I will never for the rest of my life forget who you are and what happened that night because.

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Brian Ahearn: You may feel like it was it was, for your benefit, you may feel like wow God put this person in my life but i’m saying.

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Brian Ahearn: God put you in my life to clearly show me that he was tapping me on the shoulder to say sit down and have that conversation so so you know he’s like saying thank you and i’m like no, thank you.

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Brian Ahearn: Because I so clearly understood what happened there and I think that there’s going to be a relationship that goes on for a long time, but I will never ever.

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Brian Ahearn: Forget you and we had a wonderful conversation after that, and those are the kind of things, although that’s not in the book, but those are the kinds of things that I want people to draw out.

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Brian Ahearn: Of the book that this isn’t just about getting to do stuff to get what I want it’s about doing things that genuinely benefit people, you will get a reward for that, and you will feel better and everybody wins.

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Jason Mefford: yeah cuz it’s it.

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Jason Mefford: You had to get out of your comfort zone, though, to do that right so again some other lessons for people that are that are sitting here learning right it’s it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: If you want that kind of intimacy in your life if you want these kinds of things that happen, sometimes we actually got to get off her button go do stuff right, you know and good on you, for for kind of feeling that.

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Jason Mefford: And and making that connection right because that’s a real life example of your life was better for it his life was better for it that’s the kinds of.

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Jason Mefford: of human interactions that we want to have and and you know a lot of times I mean we don’t know where it’s going to go so just be open to some of the possibilities right.

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Brian Ahearn: And now to circle back to the character Allen the book I in real life.

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Brian Ahearn: I told this person about out, and I said, would you be interested in talking to him, because you know he’s been sober more than 30 years and he said yes, I hope these two people.

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Brian Ahearn: And my wife was like oh my gosh it’s like your book is playing out in real life i’m like because because, because the character.

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Brian Ahearn: john does bump into somebody later in the book who’s got a drinking problem, and he hooks them up with Alan the book and so you know it was like wow this is playing out now in real life, and it was just so wonderful to be a part of it all.

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Jason Mefford: Oh that’s what happens when we create my friend things things come to pass that’s another topic for another podcast.

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Jason Mefford: But you know thanks thanks thanks for coming on this is it’s really good stuff I mean I I love you I love what you’re doing and.

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Jason Mefford: ne ne ne any final thoughts, you know for people on this, I mean obviously go out get brian’s book when it drops, you know so make sure will let people know where that is, I think you can get it off your website, but will also be on Amazon so maybe if you want to want to share that information.

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Brian Ahearn: Sure, so my website is influence people dot biz bi Z and so, once the book is available there will be links from the book and, yes, it will be on Amazon, it will be in paperback and.

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Brian Ahearn: ebook versions so yeah i’d say you know go out there and pick that up I would love for people to read it and take away some of the interesting things that we’ve been talking about here and that.

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Brian Ahearn: The goal for that and the goal, and what I do Jason and we were talking about this earlier.

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Brian Ahearn: My mission for my business is professional success and personal happiness and I really believe that, if I can teach people how to ethically influence others.

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Brian Ahearn: getting people to say yes to you at the office it’s pretty critical for your success you’ll enjoy more success if you understand how to do that.

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Brian Ahearn: But when you go home and you have conversations and interactions with your your kids your spouse your neighbors.

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Brian Ahearn: If you’re able to communicate that makes it easier for them to say yes to you you’re probably going to have more peace and happiness and so that’s what I want people to draw out of the book and that’s why it’s.

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Brian Ahearn: The subtitle is the secrets to success and happiness, most people will intuitively understand what i’m sharing in the book because it’s human psychology and they’re human beings.

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Brian Ahearn: But they don’t sometimes step back and think about how to put that into practice and, as we talked about earlier.

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Brian Ahearn: You know, when we when we talk about being authentic.

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Brian Ahearn: Everybody would love authenticity, but they’re always waiting for the other person, but when we start to learn that if I take that step reciprocity that play most people will reciprocate and I can start having what I want by giving what I want.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and that that kind of reminded me, you know something I think that we talked about before we hit record that I want to make sure is is the intention out the the intentional nature.

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Jason Mefford: Of this as well right, because what you just said right we we want to wait until the other person does something that’s not how it works folks you got to be the first one.

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Jason Mefford: And, and we have to actually be intentional about it right, I mean you can choose to just randomly you know being around in life and get to some random place but wouldn’t you rather be a little bit more intentional.

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Jason Mefford: and actually get to where you want to go right and sometimes that means us being a little uncomfortable like Do I really sit down.

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Jason Mefford: Next to that guy at the bar right, I mean i’ve had a lot of experiences like that to where it’s like these random chance encounters and it’s like holy shit i’m going to remember that for my whole life.

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Jason Mefford: Right, that was the most.

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Jason Mefford: One of the most interesting people I have ever met in my life and.

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Jason Mefford: i’m glad I didn’t miss that opportunity right and so again that’s what I think is so great about the book it’s something that’s easy for people to consume, but then folks you got to actually do something with it.

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Jason Mefford: You got to actually try it you got to.

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Jason Mefford: put some of these things in place, but you know from brian’s life from my life, it works.

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Brian Ahearn: Does.

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Jason Mefford: It works, they need any any final thoughts.

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Brian Ahearn: um I just say this, thank you, thank you for having me back on you know it was just random that I joked in reply back to the email and you’re asking what’s going on, I said I got the book, you know hey come back on the show so.

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Brian Ahearn: I had been a while, since we’ve seen each other and talked, and so this was just a lot of fun, so thank you for having me on.

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Jason Mefford: Well you’re welcome and no, thank you right because.

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Jason Mefford: Just like with everything I mean we we we learn right, I mean our relationship is stronger now as a result of it, too, which is great, because I think you’re fabulous guy and.

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Jason Mefford: yeah I have to tell you some other stuff after we quit hitting record probably but, but thank you for coming on and for the work that you’re really doing to help people.

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Jason Mefford: actually have more success and happiness because that’s ultimately what everybody wants the problem is, they just don’t know how to really get it.

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Brian Ahearn: yep I agree.

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Jason Mefford: So, so thank you, my friend and i’m sure we’ll have to have you back again you’re going to be a regular person on the on the.

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Brian Ahearn: Show I thought I would love it Jason Thank you.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you.

A little out of the ordinary for this podcast, but today we will be talking about grief and loss. Something that all of us either have felt or will feel in our lives. Grief and loss comes in all different forms, so this episode applies to literally everyone.

It may be hard to stay on the positive side during situations like these, but we have Debbie Wood here with us to discuss how we can turn these emotions around for the better and see that grief and loss is actually a gift.

Reach out to Debbie at: [email protected]

and for some of the yummy maple syrup mentioned in this episode go to: www.woodssyrup.com

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Well, I am very excited for today’s discussion now, you may have looked at the title and thought my goodness grief loss, what are you talking about Jason that’s not normally.

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Jason Mefford: The kinds of things that you talk about but i’m excited because all of us right all of us experience grief and loss throughout our life.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s how we choose to deal with that we can see it as a gift or something that’s not a gift right and so i’m excited to have my friend debbie would with me today.

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Jason Mefford: Where we’re actually going to jump in and talk about it because, again whether it’s you know, maybe losing a family member whether it’s losing a job, whether it’s.

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Jason Mefford: losing your identity, if you will, we all experience grief and loss in our life and today we’re going to talk about how to turn that into a gift so with that let’s roll the episode.

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Jason Mefford: All right, debbie my friend, I am so excited to have you here with me.

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Debbie Wood: I am.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s you know, this is a topic I haven’t told you some stuff.

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Jason Mefford: I mean we’re friends, but I haven’t told you some stuff because I wanted it to kind of come out today on the podcast as well.

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Jason Mefford: As as we go through this, because this is a.

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Jason Mefford: it’s a serious topic it’s it’s something that so many people deal with, but not a lot of people talk about.

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Jason Mefford: And I think you’ve seen that from helping people yourself right and.

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Jason Mefford: You know I just had to do one thing because i’m a little off the wall, you know that anyway right so.

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Jason Mefford: So debbie.

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Jason Mefford: Why stop now right.

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Jason Mefford: So debbie you know i’m in California you’re in.

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Jason Mefford: Where Am I.

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Jason Mefford: In Vermont so when you think of Vermont, what do you think of right you think of.

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Debbie Wood: maple syrup.

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Jason Mefford: syrup and I have some words Bourbon.

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Jason Mefford: syrup.

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Debbie Wood: Oh no.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and especially when I when I you know because I knew, you know that your husband has asked the company from what we were talking about, and so I jumped on there and i’m like holy shit Bourbon barrel, aged maple syrup are you kidding me i’m all.

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Debbie Wood: Over that that’s just a little side thing you know yeah so it’s it’s a yummy thing, and I did get a few extra bottles, for some people for.

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Debbie Wood: Christmas and I let them know that means a lot.

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Jason Mefford: Thanks well because it’s one on one of our sons really likes Rom.

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Jason Mefford: So, of course, I had to get the runway.

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Jason Mefford: And anyway, I just had to do that and I like to see you smile too, but anyway, I will refrain from doing my typical one right the show is doing.

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Debbie Wood: Great on ice cream and.

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Jason Mefford: Oh well, there’s a little sweet stuff.

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sweet.

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Jason Mefford: So.

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Jason Mefford: But no, so I guess you know let’s let’s kind of get into what we’re what we’re planning to talk about today, because I know you have had.

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Jason Mefford: Some of these experiences in your life that have led you to help people who have gone through grief and loss so maybe, let me just kind of turn it over to you, maybe just just share a little bit of your story and why you help people with this.

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Debbie Wood: So I have been drawn to the topic of loss for several years and it was really started or like birthed out of the adoption, I have.

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Debbie Wood: Three biological sons and then, I have three adopted children two girls they’re not biologically related because that’s always the next question.

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Debbie Wood: Who were adopted at three years old and one, and then a year and a half later boy who was adopted, because of our story through the same age same place in Liberia West Africa long story he ended up in our home at the age of nine so.

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Debbie Wood: I didn’t have words for it like I do now and for many adoptive families that’s the word is the loss in their body shows up in all sorts of ways, for me, there was loss of the family i’d had before we adopted.

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Debbie Wood: That I didn’t know was going to happen, and so you have a lot of mixed feelings and then over the years, different behavioral issues.

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Debbie Wood: The stress on the marriage we’ve been married 27 years to the same person, so I started reading up kind of about grief and loss outside of the typical narrative of it has to be around a loved one.

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Debbie Wood: And so I just loved learning about it and reframing and and kind of seeing an as a platform to.

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Debbie Wood: Start over let go and what is possible from here, and then in May of last year, our daughter, who was 17 or adopted daughter passed away suddenly.

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Debbie Wood: And we found out was from a seizure disorder, even though we had had her tested she’d had about three or four random seizures out of nowhere, the year before.

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Debbie Wood: And so, she passed away, and I remember after I hit the knees hit the ground that night that I knew I would not do this healing journey alone I don’t know why that thought came to me, but I knew.

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Debbie Wood: I could not let this did you just know this is going to destroy everything that I knew and held dear and was pure you just instantly feel a purity in your life and innocence of your life is just stolen, and then I just kind of set the intention that I would find helps in some way.

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Debbie Wood: And it’s like such an intuitive thought right now that came to me that I I knew I wasn’t prepared to walk that.

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Debbie Wood: And no one else was going to know how to walk it with me, because at the time I didn’t know any other person who had lost.

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Debbie Wood: An older child, you know people lose them through miscarriage and no matter when you lose a loved one it’s very painful and awful.

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Debbie Wood: so fast forward in the summer, and that was in May, and then in the summer I happened to listen to a podcast and it was this lady talking about the five stages of grief and how that was bs and I just thought I love this lady because.

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Debbie Wood: I didn’t want to have to go through stages and I knew within me not everybody, but I knew for me I didn’t want to take a long time.

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Debbie Wood: To move through my grief story your journey and I wasn’t thinking I gotta save my family either there was a point on the plane when we flew down to.

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Debbie Wood: Do the viewing and bring her home that absolute fear, because I could see the heads of my children, their adult children and my husband and I thought oh my God, are we over.

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Debbie Wood: And that I breathed and said no we’re going to be okay we’re going to be different, but we’re going to be okay.

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Debbie Wood: So I think that, combined with the intention, I found a nice and she is a widow, who works with other widows and.

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Debbie Wood: didn’t start out that way but that’s her story, and she ended up people were like you should help people and then she had a vision of creating an academy where other.

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Debbie Wood: coaches there’s niches that they’ve lost a loved one whether it’s a parent child husband, whatever it is, and we work with people for me specifically parents who are ready to do the work.

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Debbie Wood: Around identity.

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Debbie Wood: Just kind of unpacking what does it feel like to no longer be a parent of a child, what, no matter what the age there’s a lot of changing and your.

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Debbie Wood: routine your habit identity as far as if I call myself a mom like you know people will say how many children do you have and I always say six but then I don’t know if i’m supposed to you know you have to feel it out well one went to heaven.

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Debbie Wood: Oh, and then there’s there’s that change of conversation, and then you don’t you feel like you get to pick them up, because you really are okay because i’ve done the work.

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Debbie Wood: But yeah it’s the most it was the hardest thing i’ve ever done through, and then I sit here talking to you and I am so aware of.

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Debbie Wood: The incredible gifts that have come to me out of this loss and I swear I can sit here and say I wouldn’t change it, I want her back.

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Debbie Wood: And i’m shaking saying this, I wouldn’t change anything, because I truly believe in this idea that it was her time and that her leaving.

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Debbie Wood: ushered in this incredible story and challenge and amazing life that i’m now living completely out of that loss.

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Debbie Wood: But it’s also because I i’ve done the work and i’m putting on a new way of looking at things and choosing a new identity today.

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Debbie Wood: While grieving and the loss of the family and yet again and then not taking on all of the responsibility of how are all my loved ones doing oh my gosh my husband.

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Debbie Wood: But I couldn’t do it alone, so I went through what Denise has created a course that we do one on one and eight week program and you dive in and you do the work, and then we meet together one on one.

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Debbie Wood: And some clients work with me for a few more months, I want to keep going for the year and you come into a Community of other parents who.

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Debbie Wood: know that the last, the death of their loved one was the opening it just magnified what wasn’t working, which I would say is kind of what loss does.

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Debbie Wood: It kind of rattles your chain, so to speak, and you either.

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Debbie Wood: kind of lose the way you did things and you’re like off kilter or you find the support and there’s that’s the strength and the courageous thing, whether it’s, starting with the book.

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Debbie Wood: Where you find the podcast that’s how a lot of my life has been and then eventually that one on one work or group coaching where you hear other people, they may ask a question and I love that quote what’s most general is most personal and you grow together.

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Debbie Wood: And you get stronger so.

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Jason Mefford: yeah cuz I think it’s interesting, you know as you as you described that you know a lot of times we don’t.

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Jason Mefford: We don’t share people just don’t know right so when when you lost your daughter, you know again you’re like cheese, am I, the only one right I don’t know anybody else who’s done that.

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Jason Mefford: Well there’s lots of other people who have done it, because what I haven’t told you to is guess what you know when you were talking about at the beginning, three biological kids three adopted.

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Jason Mefford: I have two biological kids to adopted to kind of step from the second marriage okay so.

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Jason Mefford: As you were talking about you know, having the adoption and it really kind of being a death or change of what you were originally in and moving into something else I can totally relate to that because I have adopted kids as well right.

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Jason Mefford: My mother, my parents right I there’s there’s seven of us.

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Jason Mefford: kids, two of which are in heaven right as well, so I had you know, as I gotten to know you, you know if I started to kind of appreciate or realize how my mother, especially was right to where she lost a child very young sudden three three years old.

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Jason Mefford: You know, again, you lost your daughter sudden right.

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Jason Mefford: And then my my younger brother.

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Jason Mefford: Again, sudden right, and so we all experienced this, but we don’t realize how many other people are out there that are going through exactly the same thing.

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Debbie Wood: Right, we want to say we don’t even say it’s a human condition.

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Debbie Wood: Loss it’s but we don’t have language for it.

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Debbie Wood: Many times.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it is and and that’s why you know some of the things that you said here that let’s just kind of jump into a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: More, and again I mean this is.

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Jason Mefford: You know we’re talking about a death, but again it’s it’s any any loss this kind of goes along with right like I heard you say that you felt like your innocence of life was stolen.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe explain that what is what is, what does that mean what does that feel like and how do you how do you get through that.

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Debbie Wood: So I would say the previous years before her passing there were these moments where you’re you’re.

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Debbie Wood: you’re connecting with the child for just for her, I guess, I should say, and she you know would get mad and I didn’t always have the tools, so I get mad back and you just when they were little you were connected and then all this, and this is kind of common I mean teenagers period.

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Jason Mefford: There comes a point and it’s like.

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Debbie Wood: So i’m that’s what i’m saying it’s the normal conditioning, we have this huge heavy awful.

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Debbie Wood: death of a child, but my goodness, every day, we have to, we have to be open to what this is or will not out and you have to feel the loss of it so it’s just the innocence of.

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Debbie Wood: You know you remember, they don’t remember how we saw them, you know this cute innocent child and then what they see is this angry parent.

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Debbie Wood: And they take it on and they they build stories around it, and so the innocence of just this beautiful acceptance between the two of us that i’m fully loved and my mom gets me and she accepts me you.

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Debbie Wood: could feel like that wasn’t there and then she’s yelling at me saying things and you’re like oh my gosh you know you were hanging on to my leg and saying I was the best thing that ever happened to you and.

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Debbie Wood: I love my mom and I can’t go to school without you and then all the sudden you’re in this, you know these hostile same with a marriage, you know or a partnership.

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Debbie Wood: And then, so the desert was, like you, you all of a sudden, you watch and feel it now it’s the worst splintering that goes out, and you can feel the.

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Debbie Wood: The my daughter here, just like everybody starts screaming and I ran like I needed to run so ran into the House and you just know they’re not the same, and you will you can’t ever get it back and you.

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Debbie Wood: You feel like you didn’t just lose her you lost everybody because they’re not going to be the same i’m not even as.

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Debbie Wood: You know my best days are ahead of me, but it won’t be who I was in that moment before her passing and we were literally taking photos outside I was so incredibly peaceful all my kids were home yeah because of coven.

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Debbie Wood: The sea, and so they were home and then that was a miracle and we’re taking pictures with the dog and you couldn’t have had a more innocent moment and then.

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Debbie Wood: The phone call and they’re not the same and we get still you know beautiful family I love us we love it man it’s definitely made us incredibly tight in that regard.

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Debbie Wood: But my oldest he’s figuring out his way but he’s definitely not the same and it’s again multiplied of this i’m can’t be attached anymore to how I thought it was going to look, I have to live here and now.

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Debbie Wood: Be in the press, I mean that’s the gift of death gift of loss you you you either for you either choose to be here and now, or you will keep going, either in the past or you’re in the future, so your children lose their mom.

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Debbie Wood: Because you’re not there, and you can say you are but you’re not when you’re not here and that’s why the work is so important, but that’s what I mean by the innocent sentiment that was a long answer.

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Jason Mefford: No, no, no, because it brought up some other questions or or things to maybe talk about because it’s.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as you as you’re talking about her explaining that that’s obviously what we feel when there’s a major event like a death.

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Jason Mefford: But, but as you were sitting there talking it’s like these things happen to us all the time right because.

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Jason Mefford: they’re they’re just come those different points in our life when things will never be like they were before again it doesn’t have to be death it’s anything else right.

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Jason Mefford: And and, and this is where you know again like you said, we can choose to just hang out in the past and oh woe is me I want things to be like they were but that’s not how life works right.

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Jason Mefford: I mean it’s.

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Debbie Wood: Not you’re not going to have the expansion, you were meant to have here, there has to be a ripping there you know.

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Debbie Wood: Working out, they all you know you rip the muscle down and it builds back stronger nature, you have to prune trees in order for it to blossom even more we don’t we don’t want to feel that what we consider a pain or.

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Debbie Wood: it’s an interruption to what felt so comfortable and normal and yet if you can reframe it that this get comfortable with the uncomfortable lean into that.

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Debbie Wood: You will get through what this feels like you know, especially the death part of the absence of their presence you can’t call her up again, you can’t talk to her, I can’t text her there’s I can’t I have no control um.

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Debbie Wood: But then you got to move through that but um yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well, you doing it’s it’s it’s interesting because, like you said.

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Jason Mefford: I like how you said that with the reframing right.

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Jason Mefford: So you know with with my brother, I mean I was 15 he was 13 accidental gunshot wound to the head gone right and and at that point, you know, like you said it was.

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Jason Mefford: How do you want to frame it.

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Jason Mefford: How do you want to frame it.

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Jason Mefford: And, and for me, because you know a little of my backstory i’ve got 11 years between me and my next oldest sibling.

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Jason Mefford: So without my little brother I wouldn’t have had the experience in life of having a brother, I would have been like an only child right, and so, when I was the accident baby and I came along, you know.

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Jason Mefford: My mom wasn’t supposed to get pregnant.

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Jason Mefford: So the doctor told her and that’s why she was really surprised.

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Debbie Wood: You are like it, you were a determined I was determined to be right.

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Jason Mefford: But, but what it did was in the they they tried again to be able to allow me the opportunity of having a brother.

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Jason Mefford: And I, and I remember at that you know, for me, going through that again as a 15 year old kid it’s kind of hard to to understand or wrap your head around a little bit.

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Debbie Wood: yeah you’re not even yeah.

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Debbie Wood: The brains, you know developing.

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Jason Mefford: But, but I remember I can’t remember who it was but somebody said something to me that really resonated with me at that time about the fact that well weren’t you lucky.

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Jason Mefford: That he came along, and you got to have a little brother and that just really hit me like you know, again we all go through these different experiences in our life.

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Jason Mefford: To make us who we need to be and, as you talk about open the doors and we’re going to go there, a little bit more, here too, but I wouldn’t be who I am today if I hadn’t had him in my life for those 13 years.

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Jason Mefford: Actually, you know and yeah there are days when I think gosh you know how old Would he be now you know, but I don’t really focus on that instead i’ve chosen to reframe it of how lucky, am I.

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Jason Mefford: That I got to have those experiences.

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Jason Mefford: You know i’ve got the pictures i’ve got the memories i’ve got all of this stuff that helped me to be who I am today.

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Jason Mefford: Right, instead of just sitting in that grief and loss and worrying about the past right and I, and I know so let’s so let’s talk about have you know know when you when you found.

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Jason Mefford: Ever what the name was, but you know the five stages of.

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Jason Mefford: The five stages are bs right and yes.

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Jason Mefford: And you know because, again, most of the time, you know that goes back to kubler Ross drive the denial anger bargaining depression acceptance right.

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Jason Mefford: That that most people understand or know about, and so the the whole idea, at least, I think the way it’s usually Todd is look trying to get through all five of those as quick as you can right.

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Jason Mefford: You don’t want to say stuck in depression and.

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Jason Mefford: You know, being angry and move on, but but talk a little bit about how.

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Jason Mefford: How do people get through it easier, without having to go through these stages, because, again, I mean it was.

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Jason Mefford: I can we were just watching a movie or TV show and somebody it brought up about the loss and grief too and they’re like oh so you’re in.

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Jason Mefford: you’re in denial, so you better hurry up and get through anger whatever right and then what’s next depression so so that’s the way that a lot of us have been taught.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right, and so we feel like oh man i’ve got to be angry about it and then i’m going to be depressed and i’m going to have to be on medication or whatever else right so.

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Jason Mefford: Right so help us understand how do you get through it, without necessarily going through those stages, because we want it to be a lot easier than that.

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Debbie Wood: right because of all yeah good.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I was gonna say because some people spend years.

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Jason Mefford: stuck right.

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Jason Mefford: And I don’t think it has to take that long.

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Debbie Wood: Well, no, and again it’s just we don’t have the tools, but I would also suggest what’s the story you’ve been told about grief.

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Debbie Wood: And what.

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Debbie Wood: Does that mean for you and what, if you could recreate how your story around grief goes.

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Debbie Wood: And that’s it can be difficult, because you are, you know we’re not doing this as a solo journey, most of us.

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Debbie Wood: And when I got out of my head about it and just decided, maybe i’ll be one of the few out there that decides I don’t want this to take.

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Debbie Wood: Because there’s a lot of misconceptions I think when you we say to move through it quickly there’s this.

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Debbie Wood: myths that well if I move through it quickly, that means i’m letting go of them or i’m not gonna i’m just kind of ignoring it i’m in denial.

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Debbie Wood: And it’s not any of that it’s saying i’ve got I today was thinking it’s kind of like you get the graphic idea that you lose a limb.

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Debbie Wood: Your life is still, for the most part, really intact you’re moving forward, but you have these phantom pains, you have you don’t just.

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Debbie Wood: start today or it were move through it and now we’re healed you learn to live with that it’s that kind of practice this is the new normal when I so our acronym within our flow program as you the F is for feel and so often, you know will feel the heavy grief and I haven’t I don’t have.

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Debbie Wood: The resource in front of me but i’ve heard that the body actually only feels grief the grieving process for six weeks.

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Debbie Wood: What we do after that is up to us your body, and it makes me think of Naomi because I think when she was younger she wasn’t fed regularly, and you know Third World country.

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Debbie Wood: She learned the body can’t stay starving, so it tells itself i’m not hungry.

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Debbie Wood: And if it’s not been the diaper hasn’t been changed oh i’m fine because, when she grew up a little bit more, we saw she was an aligned pattern, and we were helped to understand that, because her brain protected her same with with what we do here.

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Debbie Wood: So I think the idea is learning to feel your feelings and not just feel the pain of oh my gosh I can’t see them, but what you know a few months after.

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Debbie Wood: Where is it that you’re not actually allowing yourself to go and have a huge eight or.

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Debbie Wood: The crying or the getting out of the better you to smash something or you just you know your body isn’t meant to contain it, it has to release it so you feel it and then you l you let it go.

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Debbie Wood: And you’re not letting go of your loved one you’re letting go of that moment of the getting used to the new normal you know, this is a process, and then the oh was your overcoming so we work with you on.

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Debbie Wood: What are the areas now in your life that this deaths that loss has triggered magnified and we need to you know unpack that a bit where some of the stories and then and the.

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Debbie Wood: beliefs, that are not working, and then the w is that your hope you’re becoming whole in this particular let’s say it’s.

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Debbie Wood: it’s affected the business and you can’t focus and but you realize, as I haven’t most of the clients it’s never the death that held them back in these areas, it just magnified it.

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Debbie Wood: So I think my biggest piece of advice for people is that it’s a normal process, there was a lady who was in the widow’s group she can morning her husband 14 years.

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Debbie Wood: And just starting to do this work she’s already you know, had so much growth because it’s really coming back to you and loving yourself and putting yourself first self acceptance self love and.

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Debbie Wood: yeah that’s kind of where it starts.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, let’s just let’s just kind of.

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Jason Mefford: kind of go through that a little bit, we can use that losing a limb analogy.

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Jason Mefford: that’s a great one right so so i’ll be i’ll be pirate Jason you know for for a little bit and let’s say I have a you know I lost I lost a leg let’s say right so again, I mean.

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Jason Mefford: Everything that we’re talking about is you know emotional in nature, usually for grief but let’s put it into the context.

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Jason Mefford: Of a limb right because again it’s a way for people to.

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Jason Mefford: To think about this, and often if we think about it in that way we can understand it better emotionally, because sometimes the emotional stuff is not really tangible and it’s hard for us to wrap our mind around it right.

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Jason Mefford: So Okay, so I get in some sort of an accident, I lose one of my legs okay so first off i’m gonna need to feel.

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Jason Mefford: Right, so what what what does that kind of look like how How do people actually feel.

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Debbie Wood: Well they’re angry you’re feeling.

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Debbie Wood: This isn’t fair, why would this happen to me.

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Debbie Wood: What did I feel um.

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Debbie Wood: I don’t want to talk to anybody I don’t want to see anybody.

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Debbie Wood: Oh, my kids going to get in the car and drive What if he dies, how do I keep them I don’t wait, am I going to lose.

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Debbie Wood: Other people wait a minute life does we don’t all get to be together how do I live life without people how do I stay close to them, but then what without getting too I don’t want to get too attached to them, I don’t want to need anybody.

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Debbie Wood: Oh so graduations coming she’d be graduating everybody’s talking about graduation, but no one’s noticing that i’m here and we’re not talking about her graduating she would have been with your class.

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Debbie Wood: And just kind of that feeling bitter you know you have to kind of let that thing that whatever it is, come up so you can.

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Debbie Wood: Remember just ran into the window and you can feel it and then.

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Debbie Wood: don’t let it run away you kind of get get it get Ahold of it, so to speak, and.

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Debbie Wood: You are in control of where you take this.

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Debbie Wood: so to speak, and if it’s the limb I would imagine you, you know there’s that you got to feel like my whole life is over, how do I not i’m not to have a wheelchair that you’re just the support you’re going to need in your life is changing.

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Jason Mefford: yeah because I would assume you know with something like a limb.

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Jason Mefford: Right, I mean again I haven’t done this.

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Jason Mefford: You know, again, maybe it’s it’s like you said i’m going to be feeling like man how am I how am I going to do that Sir, I was a runner I.

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Jason Mefford: Consider myself an athlete.

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Jason Mefford: And now you know what what am I going to do i’m might be angry, especially maybe if it was something that I did that was stupid.

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Debbie Wood: right that.

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Jason Mefford: That led to it, so now, I might feel a little guilty of doing it right, I might start to feel like all my whole life is is wasted now.

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Jason Mefford: But you know again so so at that point, because then I think we start we quickly kind of move into the let it go or that’s what I wanted to kind of, say, because you were you’re talking about, and this is one thing i’ve learned, especially the last year, so it’s okay.

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Jason Mefford: to feel those emotions it’s just not okay to get stuck and stay in those emotions right.

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Jason Mefford: So so So how do we so I guess at that point we’re kind of feeling it, but then we have to kind of let it go or.

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Debbie Wood: honor what you’re feeling it’s an honoring I think so many of us, especially an emotional world we are not.

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Debbie Wood: we’re taught so often okay you’re sad now move on or your you didn’t get the exam the test you on it didn’t come out the way you want, and you didn’t get the job you didn’t but you know.

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Debbie Wood: tomorrow’s a new day you know and we kind of make a happy statement because we all want to stay in that state of what we think is happy.

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Debbie Wood: But what happens is if it’s not allowed, because energy is I mean emotions are energy in motion, and so, when you don’t allow it to at least come out and.

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Debbie Wood: Either find a way to you know, maybe exercise take a walk the letting go isn’t that we’re just going to not go there and we’re not journaling you know, maybe voice recording how you’re feeling nobody else has to see it.

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Debbie Wood: But it’s it’s not just seeing it now, you have to actively do something with it.

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Debbie Wood: And so, building a new practice in your life of when it does come up and it’s maybe around the grief and loss because it’s going to come back up again.

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Debbie Wood: Where do you go with that that could be a healthy or habit than just stuffing or doing all the other numbing things that most of us do when we have.

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Debbie Wood: And just practice and being kind with you’re not able to let it go, you know that’s in the moment i’m just being curious with yourself and.

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Jason Mefford: So so we’re actually kind of doing something, because, like you said there’s got to be some activists to it right as well, and I know.

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Jason Mefford: So, for example, I don’t know if you if you did this, but I, I saw this in my family right when my brother died his room stayed intact.

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Jason Mefford: Right, the door just close the door just got closed.

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Jason Mefford: You know, for a long time and.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t know if my parents did, but I did I would go in and lay on his bed.

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Jason Mefford: And you know do stuff.

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Jason Mefford: As as part of kind of letting go, but it but it’s kind of the.

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Jason Mefford: Now we got to get on with our life.

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Jason Mefford: Right right so again if i’ve if i’ve lost one of my legs at some point i’ve got to get my butt up off the couch actually go do something go get some crutches figure out about prosthetics.

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Jason Mefford: Because it start and start to change my stories as well right because again that’s one where you might say, you know, all I lost my leg well again I just.

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Jason Mefford: wanna documentaries, you were watching last night, there was a guy that Boston leg, and in the military and he’s doing just fine with the prosthetic right, I mean how many olympians and other people.

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Jason Mefford: have been able to do it so changing our stories moving ourselves closer to that way and just letting go of what we thought the future.

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Jason Mefford: Exactly be right.

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Debbie Wood: it’s helped me is sitting with this was going to happen.

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Debbie Wood: And I know that goes against everything we want to say that we could have prevented you know she wasn’t even in our care at the time she was at a different school, I have the guilt oh I wasn’t there.

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Debbie Wood: But if you really sit in if you saw my whole life deb if you’re looking at your whole life honey, this was going to be a part of it.

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Debbie Wood: it’s new to you, but from this higher a vantage point, this was always a part of the timeline here’s this next stage of who you become and you’re being you’re still this woman, but now, who are you going to be with this new.

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Debbie Wood: Chapter new you know with this percent bounce back and forth, but then you did like that’s what I had to start to recognize was that life that I knew was over, so that meant I had to kind of do new things like.

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Debbie Wood: Well, what do I, how do I see myself as a mom all of a sudden, I had all this extra not energy, but I was so used to dealing with her life and the things that that were around her.

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Debbie Wood: Whether it was positive or negative you you just get so used and they’re not.

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Debbie Wood: There, so you have to kind of feel you I don’t even know how I think you just kind of you’ve learned new things, but we still have some stuff of hers.

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Debbie Wood: But this week, I was like you know what we need to clean out our basement and it’s time but I thought, do I sell some of it or do I just.

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Debbie Wood: I don’t really want to give it away because it feels like it’s and then i’m like well why are we attaching any meaning to her stuff she’s not here, so you kind of go it’s kind of you have to let yourself go there you got it you’ve never done this before.

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Debbie Wood: Like we have with the leg you’ve got to get used and then, if there is the phantom pain and that’s what I would consider.

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Debbie Wood: All the sudden i’ll see a picture of her and the reality that I can’t have her put her arm around on me and instantly i’ll feel the emotion and i’ll cry it out.

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Debbie Wood: But then I go into the part of letting go now for me as oh my gosh going back to what you said earlier, the absolute joy and gratitude that I got to know this kid.

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Debbie Wood: Who nobody knew was even interested in from the other side of this globe, she somehow we attracted each other and I brought her home from Liberia.

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Debbie Wood: And she was in my house what that’s amazing and the laughter and the joy that she brought in, and knowing that i’m not the same, but I think when what happens with because the grief is two sided we think of the negative, but this side of it.

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Debbie Wood: Is we have this tendency with grief to arm, if you don’t let it go kind of you stay in the starkness is that.

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Debbie Wood: You miss out.

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Debbie Wood: You miss out on the the value of her your loved one you miss out on that that energy never changes that energy of having them and loving them and.

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Debbie Wood: we’ve gotten so used to the physical way we love each other, they have to be here, I should right.

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Debbie Wood: But that doesn’t ever end, I can still visit my memories, I can still who, I am here is because of her in my life so when i’m living choosing to live.

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Debbie Wood: In the best place, I can right now she’s here and that’s part of, I think, where I I rest now is, I have a choice to live my life.

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Debbie Wood: So fully alive, because she passed away I am so much more aware of being here and what do I want my life to look like and i’m going to leave someday So what do I want to go about now doing in my life um yeah it’s the big esoteric questions and.

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Jason Mefford: I love going esoteric Okay, we can go down lots of rabbit holes no because because, as you were as you were.

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Jason Mefford: Talking you know again it’s we get taught certain things in our life we get taught these stories indoctrinated and, as you were sitting there talking.

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Jason Mefford: I was thinking to myself, you know.

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Jason Mefford: If.

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Jason Mefford: If you don’t feel grateful.

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Jason Mefford: For the impact that Naomi had in your life.

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Jason Mefford: For how she helped make you a better woman.

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yep.

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Jason Mefford: And if you don’t get on and live your life as the new debbie.

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Jason Mefford: Right, who has learned this new stuff.

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Jason Mefford: What almost a.

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Jason Mefford: disrespect.

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Jason Mefford: It is to having her in your life and again for a lot of people that’s going to be like holy shit.

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Jason Mefford: Oh, did you just say right.

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Debbie Wood: But let’s hope that bear.

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Jason Mefford: yeah but but but really I mean it’s like you know again if we can’t.

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Jason Mefford: come to terms with and get to that place of gratitude and again like you said there’s the ripping there’s you know there’s there’s death in nature there’s but there has to be death for renewal.

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Jason Mefford: right along along the whole way and so.

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Jason Mefford: Why do we think as humans that we’re any different and it’s about time to you know get on and and move on up, if you will, right that that that place of gratitude and letting letting go and allowing what’s coming or the gift.

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Jason Mefford: That you got from the grief that you.

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Jason Mefford: That you went through a completely different person now than you were a couple years ago.

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Jason Mefford: Absolutely.

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Debbie Wood: Because of this yeah my whole frame of how I look at the world it’s like that’s the gift of loss and death, if you choose to go there with it.

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Debbie Wood: What is it here to teach me and if i’m not attached to what does it mean for me and it’s got to be about me and my loss and I no longer have my child and you can get into this identity of i’m.

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Debbie Wood: You know very easily you can look to others to come and coddle you not coddle you but that’s i’m going to say that’s what it is we can have we can rehash our grief story.

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Debbie Wood: And at the end of the day that just gets old because you’re not you’re actually disrespecting your own life, you get this one good life, you can choose to stay in this and say well it’s my right, and I am.

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Debbie Wood: I do believe in the five stages which by the way, I guess that lady wrote it about cancer her and her own journey and that it has morphed into all this and there is no there’s no right or way to grief.

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Debbie Wood: grief, but there you have loved ones in your life you it’s not about you you’re here to love and serve and create expansion, for those who are with you and it’s.

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Debbie Wood: yeah it’s it’s choice.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it isn’t it is you were talking there reminded me of kind of what you.

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Jason Mefford: Were you were sharing at the beginning.

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Jason Mefford: You know where a lot of times, especially grieving parents, they withdraw.

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Jason Mefford: And you know there’s the rest of the family that’s there and so now it’s not like.

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Jason Mefford: You know that the kids didn’t just lose a sibling.

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Jason Mefford: Right, they also lost a parent at the.

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Jason Mefford: same time.

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Jason Mefford: Right and that that’s that’s again it’s it’s it’s our impact that we have on on everybody else as well.

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Debbie Wood: yeah that brings up Sunday, I went mental mentioned earlier, I remember in that moment, the first couple hours they’re all work together and crying and holding and.

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Debbie Wood: it’s very, very clear to me if you can’t abandon them.

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Debbie Wood: And I have enough in me like the resources and being around loss, and I was reading about it that I was able to go there quickly with that I know, most people may not think i’m.

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Debbie Wood: they’re abandoning their children because they’re grieving that the other child that they lost, but if I knew, whatever it took I needed to still show up.

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Debbie Wood: They don’t they still need the mom that they had they still need an intact home they still need a home that is going to be.

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Debbie Wood: predictable and safe and not you know grieving we did it for a couple of months you definitely could feel it in their house, but we got back to a somewhat more and what we weren’t in denial.

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Debbie Wood: But we needed to get back to our rhythm and a routine because that’s what the human spirit needs and our children, they were you know older but.

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Debbie Wood: They needed that and it was good for me to kind of get back to a normal seat, you know and then with my husband, we needed to go back to laughing I mean I remember the first few times you start to feel joyful you’re like ooh.

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Debbie Wood: You know this is so common with everybody i’ve heard this before before nearly passed that awkwardness do I have the right to be happy, yes, because you are.

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Debbie Wood: When we’re joyful and happy and well being and peace that ripple effect it just expands those around us in our home and our communities.

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Debbie Wood: So I just wanted to add that little piece, that it was very important to me.

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Debbie Wood: Even now, to see them he’s there in front of me my child naomi’s not here, but I am fully his mom here now and then we’ll have conversations miss my oldest is very much.

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Debbie Wood: open to talking about he always checks in but not the other kids and you’ll find that to some people will check in but very few you know and then with those ones you do, who say how are you doing you get to have that conversation.

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Debbie Wood: Well, you know today, it was just I really missed she could just put her hand on my shoulder and then he.

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Debbie Wood: says yeah it’s really hard for me not to be able to make a tick tock video and send it to her, you know you just, and that is such another way of letting go you’re getting an out your.

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Debbie Wood: You know, sometimes I think to we get nervous, I thought to me bring it up to our children to even bring it up to my husband we don’t really have conversations Alan I, but once in a while I will you know cry or or.

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Debbie Wood: You know, whatever it is, maybe i’m thinking Moody and i’ll say I think it’s because.

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Debbie Wood: I think grief, is in my body or you know loss and feeling lost you don’t know, and so you just have to have the conversation with your family members of.

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Debbie Wood: i’m just navigating this and I are the kids made their snappy and you know edgy we just assume there’s part of the grief showing itself and loss and we don’t make anything of it.

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Debbie Wood: And if that’s, the last thing i’ll say is the gift that it’s given us is we’re much more open to them reacting and not just demanding this kind of demanding thing of.

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Debbie Wood: Well you’re Moody today or get yourself back into happy mode, because that will make us feel better it’s you just can’t bottle it that it’s going to come up and so we’re much more patient were much more open to allowing emotion and.

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Debbie Wood: it’s just it’s a huge gift.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it is and that’s you know that it is something that can be overcome.

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Jason Mefford: much quicker usually, then I think I think what most people are taught about right and that’s that’s one of the things that you’re helping people do but.

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Jason Mefford: I wanted to also ask because you know and again this this comes up from time to time to is when you know people who have experienced some of the laws.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes we’re we’re a little awkward we don’t know what do you say, what do you do I.

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mean.

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Jason Mefford: How is the best way to support people that are going through grief and loss be big because you know again it’s like sometimes it’s like pull up your big boy pants and put a smile on your face.

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Jason Mefford: right but that’s not really helpful.

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Jason Mefford: So, so how you know because we’ve been talking about how we can kind of support ourselves.

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Jason Mefford: You know, feel it let it go overcome you know put some of those new habits those new things in place, see the world differently have have different stories.

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Jason Mefford: And that we can be a whole person and realize that again it’s it’s.

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Jason Mefford: it’s part of our whole experience right is all this stuff that we’re going through, but if there’s somebody in your life who’s experienced that and you want to help support them, how are some of the best ways to support other people.

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Debbie Wood: I think it’s allowing this my I guess the word that I would just you’re holding space.

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Debbie Wood: I think so often I think most people are just not they’re just we’re so ill prepared to handle how to communicate about what we’re feeling, first of all, and then add this but.

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Debbie Wood: They don’t know what they’re feeling even I think a lot of people are just unaware that they’re feeling it so if it’s maybe an interaction and, like you, don’t you don’t know or.

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Debbie Wood: I think just showing up being yourself but not trying to like hide the elephant in the room, just being aware that.

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Debbie Wood: it’s also their journey and sometimes you have to wait for the queue.

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Debbie Wood: Maybe if they’re like snippy at you it’s just holding giving them extra grace, they are.

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Debbie Wood: It really is just the body doesn’t always, I think I guess I go back to Naomi and I can look back now and see a lot of what she was going through as a teenager in her early years and her anger was more about.

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Debbie Wood: She didn’t have words for what was happening she really didn’t and I think most of us just don’t have words so it’s just that comfortable space.

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Debbie Wood: That you can provide by sending with them, maybe sending a card that’s The one thing that stopped was you get all these cards in the beginning, and then there’s nothing.

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Debbie Wood: So if you have a thought of them, and you know, send a card and just say was thinking of you today.

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Debbie Wood: I know you miss her every day and.

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Debbie Wood: Oh no or maybe if it’s like a graduation, this is so good, I haven’t even really thought like what would I do.

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Debbie Wood: My graduation time and if you know that they’re like they say they lost their child and the young.

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Debbie Wood: All these years later if you’re like a family member, you would you’d be the only one to know this, that their child will be graduating this year, what an amazing.

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Debbie Wood: thing to get a card that would say i’m you know, thinking of her that she would have graduated this year, maybe for other people, that would be a trigger but.

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Debbie Wood: welcome it if it makes you go oh my gosh they would flip out.

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Debbie Wood: Part of that is just a health, you know, maybe that’s not you’re not responsible for their reaction, maybe that’s what I need to say.

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Debbie Wood: just see even trying to analyze well you know just show up if it’s something you want to send a card or you or send a text or can I give you a hug today, and maybe they say no, or say yes.

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Debbie Wood: I don’t think we need to worry about how they react, you have some love to give you have some joy some your presence is all that.

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Debbie Wood: is needed, and just the fact that you’re sending them that vibration of love and encouragement that’s all that matters, and the fact that you’re even trying, because it is everybody gets awkward everybody.

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Debbie Wood: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s that’s that’s a good way to kind of end up you end up on it it’s a life lesson and in general for anybody right is that if we can just show up allow other people to be who they are allow them to be on the journey that they’re going to be on.

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Jason Mefford: Actually, and hold space for them, you know and not try to fix it because we can’t fix it it’s their journey right right, but if we’re there.

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Debbie Wood: and put it back on there.

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Debbie Wood: You can’t put the mess missing limb back on it’s oh it’s done its final and this okay banality is a gift it’s beautiful it’s now help them pivot support them in the pivoting that’s really where we need as a human species to help one another because we don’t.

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Debbie Wood: The person pivoting doesn’t know what they’re doing and the people around all the sudden everybody’s changing it’s like wait you’re not the same.

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Debbie Wood: Everything is just so interesting and different but it’s normal it’s okay what’s going on.

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Debbie Wood: And we’re taught how to get and you know, Mary and get a partner and have kids but we’re not taught how to let go.

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Debbie Wood: And so it’s just allowing each other that space to just figure this next phase next chapter out and no time does not heal all wounds and you don’t heal grief you heal yourself, and I think that’s.

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Debbie Wood: An important lesson grief is a gift, but if you don’t tend to it in the way that needs to be it can certainly reach some habit in your life.

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Okay.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I did, and what you brought up there to you know about having gone through.

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Jason Mefford: several deaths and my family as well you know again if somebody’s listening and you know somebody who’s gone through that there’s a huge outpouring the first week.

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Jason Mefford: The funeral all that kind of stuff.

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Jason Mefford: And then everybody retreats everybody else goes back to their regular life so if you really want to help somebody reach out to them at those times when other people are withdrawing that’s usually two or three weeks afterwards.

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Jason Mefford: And just be there just show up just don’t have to talk don’t have to fix anything just let people know that you’re thinking about them, that you love them and you’re there to support him hey if you want a hug and i’m here for hugs.

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Debbie Wood: And I will say, because now that I go around town, I noticed seems like more and more people i’m sorry i’m like losing my light.

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Debbie Wood: But more and more people are saying hi to me it could just be me noticing, but I think just go about you know, I have one lady.

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Debbie Wood: friend who will text and say how are you feeling about Naomi today, or what.

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Debbie Wood: Have you in a memory that you’ve had about Naomi and I love that that’s great because it gives me an opportunity to share and I don’t have to answer right away, you know remember people don’t always have to answer right, then, so if it’s a.

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Debbie Wood: text or a card that gives them the space to kind of what do I want to respond, but also if you see them someone who has had a loss still say hi to them and treat them as if their life is going on, because we also feel awkward that you know.

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Debbie Wood: like this and you can just be so sensitive to like.

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Debbie Wood: Twice and then also hey me saying hi to people in the beginning was kind of awkward because you knew that they knew.

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Debbie Wood: Naomi was not here anymore, and yet she’s happy and saying hi because.

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Debbie Wood: Like I said life goes on, and you know, in the beginning 90% of your day is awful and then before you know it it’s like 80% and then the end before you know at 70 and then.

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Debbie Wood: pretty much latest feeling normal and then occasionally you’re hit again by the two by four oh gosh we had where that family, you know.

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Debbie Wood: But yeah both sides it’s.

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Debbie Wood: it’s just practice getting used to it.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think you know, again I love your the idea that grief is a gift.

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Jason Mefford: mm hmm that’s a story that serves all of us very well, regardless of whatever grief or loss, where we may go through if we see everything that’s happening to us as a gift be grateful for what we’re learning and just keep moving along right that’s that’s a great recipe for a happy life.

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Debbie Wood: yeah and you’re this What if life is about your learning, not just things happening to us and we just get up and we go about it but truly everything here is operating for our highest and best good.

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Debbie Wood: And you have to take that even to your losses or you are missing out on the actually the deepest lessons of life and actually helping you to let go even more of things that keep you attached and down.

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Debbie Wood: And you’ll meet the most amazing people when you start to let go, because you will need that support group and they come in the most amazing places when you decide that it’s you’re not going to do the solo.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I love you and thank you for.

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Coming.

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Jason Mefford: Today I know it’s it’s you’re my sister from another Mister right.

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Jason Mefford: so well, thank you for coming on because I know again.

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Jason Mefford: You know a lot of times, as we were just talking about here at the end even we don’t know what to say they don’t know what to say when when we know people are going through tough times, again, regardless of what the tough time yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah there’s so many tough times you know divorce, I mean all these other things just show up and love, on the other person hold that space for them.

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Jason Mefford: In just allow them to be and understand their path that they’re going on, because, like you said that’s that’s actually where the magic really happens in life that’s where the real connection and intimacy really come from.

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Jason Mefford: us in those experiences and like you said don’t.

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Jason Mefford: don’t just think of all the good things as gifts, but think of the things that we might label as bad as being a true gift to us as well because we’re learning a lesson that we couldn’t learn any other way.

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Debbie Wood: And you’re not going to feel this in the middle of it, I mean this is we’re talking after.

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Debbie Wood: The body’s gone through it and you’re getting back to your new normal but interacting with each other and creating some sense of normalcy.

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Debbie Wood: Whether it’s something that you know you used to joke, with the person kind of go back to you being you because that’s and i’m saying this for the person who hasn’t had the loss.

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Debbie Wood: it’s hard enough when we lose somebody but to notice the dynamics might have changed with other people in our life that’s hard to.

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Debbie Wood: So we really do want you to stay you so if you come into a usually bubbly person come in bubbly you know, after a few weeks or a couple months, whatever you know sense it out, but.

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Debbie Wood: We don’t want to lose that either and that’s kind of what it feels like in the beginning, because you can sense everybody does this awkward.

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Debbie Wood: You know and they’re grieving you know you got your people, everyone was grieving and then eventually we have to get we want to have that sense of normalcy back.

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So.

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Jason Mefford: Perfect well, I know, like I said at the beginning, you know you’re helping parents that are going through this so how’s that how’s the best way for people to kind of reach out to you and.

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Jason Mefford: If they’re needing help because they’re like debbie i’m in the same situation right, I mean we like I said more of us are going through this and then we realize, because people aren’t talking about it.

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Debbie Wood: Right and we need to collectively talk about it and get get the healing going so you can reach out to me at parents living beyond grief at gmail COM.

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Debbie Wood: Eventually i’ll have a website, but for now just reach out and even if you just want to say you know, can you please pray for me or I need.

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Debbie Wood: Just encouragement that’s what we can start with, and then we can decide if that’s something you want to work with you one on one we can have that conversation but start by just reaching out that’s what I did with Denise, and here I am.

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Debbie Wood: yeah I didn’t even you know she was a widow, and I was like I don’t know I don’t think I, and I remember thinking I don’t think I need.

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Debbie Wood: coaching necessarily because she won’t know what i’m going through, but it was more of that the.

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Debbie Wood: The bond of loss that she knew, and the fact that she chose to get healed because she had been in therapy for many years, and she remembers going one day.

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Debbie Wood: And the ladies like oh you’ll you know, like How long do I feel like this, I think therapist says, but you know, several years, and she was like.

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Debbie Wood: She went hell no I am done so she she went about our own healing journey and so that’s who I want to work with people who know that they have more to give and your best days are ahead of you and that’s hard.

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Debbie Wood: To have that belief, there are.

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Jason Mefford: there’s lots of good days ahead and.

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Jason Mefford: i’m grateful for you coming on here and for the women that you are and how you’re helping people as well, so thank.

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Debbie Wood: You.

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Debbie Wood: Thanks for letting me share my story.

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Jason Mefford: you’re welcome thanks.

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Right.

Who would want to listen to a podcast featuring 2 CPAs?

Yeah, me either. Sounds pretty boring, right?

But today’s episode does not have anything to do with taxes or any of that boring stuff!!!

My friend Michelle Kerr is here with us to discuss how we can form deep and more meaningful conversations with other people, whether they be with co-workers or others outside of work, and since Michelle is a relationship ninja, you’ll want to listen to this whole episode.

So here’s to throwing out all the “technical jargon” and become a relationship ninja forming strong bonds with others… Even if it is while discussing those dreaded taxes 😛

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason225/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright, well, I gotta tell you folks I am super excited for today’s episode, so I have.

2
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Jason Mefford: My friend Michelle curve with me and you know I could start off and maybe I will i’ll just start off with a bad joke right, you know what happens when two CPA is walk into a podcast.

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Jason Mefford: Well, you might be thinking oh my gosh I don’t want to listen to a podcast with two CPA is they’re just going to be talking about tax and that’s going to be boring.

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Jason Mefford: Right well whatever you do listen, because what you’re going to find out is even though we both maybe CPA is what we’re going to talk about today is absolutely not what you would expect to CPA is to talk about so with that we’re going to roll the.

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episode.

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Jason Mefford: hey Michelle how are you my friend.

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Michelle Kerr: yeah i’m great how are you today.

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Jason Mefford: i’m excited to have you here with me there’s you know we’ve known each other now for a couple years and it’s.

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Jason Mefford: Even as we were talking right before before we hit record and so again, who knows where this is going to go folks right, this is a.

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Jason Mefford: This is me right so who knows where this discussion is going to go, but even more parallels with your life in my life, I mean it’s like it’s no wonder that we have this connection, as friends.

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Jason Mefford: Even though we’re halfway across the country from each other so anyway, I wanted to you know, bring bring in maybe you know just thumbnail you know we’re both CPA a’s right but but we’re not going to talk about that kind of stuff today right, but just kind of let let people.

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Jason Mefford: know a little bit about you, because I want to get in and.

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Jason Mefford: and talk about something that’s both passionate for us, which is.

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Jason Mefford: Soon connection.

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Michelle Kerr: Absolutely, thank you for having me honor to be here.

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Michelle Kerr: My name is Michelle I grew up in indiana.

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Jason Mefford: who’s your who’s your.

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Michelle Kerr: indiana hoosier right on the border of Illinois and indiana and most all of my extended family lived in the area and my family is very entrepreneurial so the business was modeled in all facets of my extended family everybody was involved in in business and.

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Michelle Kerr: I think I just really admired the.

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Michelle Kerr: The role that small business plays in the global economy and seeing how people navigate conversations around that the guy I would say I kind of glamorized.

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Michelle Kerr: What it meant to be a business person so that that was why I didn’t know a cta and I actually decided in eighth grade that I wanted to go to college to study.

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Michelle Kerr: Accounting not knowing anything about the county I took a high school accounting class I was good at it and all of the profiles.

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Michelle Kerr: You know personality profiles that that that would be a good career, for me, I think my other two choices were to be a nurse and I don’t have a clinical stomach so that one out quite.

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Michelle Kerr: Any kindergarten teacher.

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Michelle Kerr: which I think I verbatim said they don’t make any money yeah so it was the county.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s funny right because we both ended up that way in our in our training right, I mean it’s it’s a good, solid thing to have right, you can always fall back on it, I got told that a lot right.

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Jason Mefford: What I think is interesting, you know, and then I alluded to before neither one of us are really the traditional stereotypical CPA right but.

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Jason Mefford: But we’ve lived that life for years and now we’re kind of trying to unpack who we actually are underneath right.

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Jason Mefford: Exactly so so maybe talk a little bit about that you know as you’ve gone through you know your life because yeah I mean for being a CPA professional business, you know you gotta all these things are expectations that get thrown upon you right.

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Jason Mefford: How did, how did that work for you and.

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Jason Mefford: In your life, you know because because again you’re expected to kind of be one person professionally but i’m guessing that probably wasn’t who you felt that you were underneath right.

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Michelle Kerr: yeah i’ll say a couple of things, so my dad what what self employed and he didn’t actually finish college they didn’t have enough money so he dropped out after a year and a half and my mom never went to college she worked for the phone company for 18 years.

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Michelle Kerr: And my dad really instilled the principle of hard work ethics ethical business interaction and he was he would be one person at home, you know very strict and stern my friends are afraid of them a good man like a loving man, but also, he would withdraw when he was pleased with you.

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Michelle Kerr: But he instilled those those values for my brother and I, and then I you know I would be with him out in the Community, and he was like a mayor employee who is this guy.

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Michelle Kerr: But he’s like hey Jason how, whatever your wife’s name and and they’re like Oh, is this your daughter and i’m going, who is this guy like he was so engaging with people so that had been modeled to me kind of how to.

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Michelle Kerr: get to know people and I I grew up as the firstborn overachiever I have one brother to 20 months younger.

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Michelle Kerr: And so I was typically doing the good girl role i’m also the only girl in both sides of my family, I was the only the only granddaughter.

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Michelle Kerr: So i’d always been kind of an old soul, like in the kitchen with my grandmas and and and hearing stories about their family.

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Michelle Kerr: I remember, most of my youth I couldn’t wait to grow up, I just wanted to go into business because it was the language of business and there’s a portable degree that I can do anything with high minded and French.

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Michelle Kerr: and

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Michelle Kerr: I just wanted to get there, get to that grown up I loved like the image back at the time.

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Michelle Kerr: Women in business for wearing pencil skirts and hosiery closed toe shoes and someone from the local school business came and spoke at my high school classroom and I was just enamored with all of it, the computer.

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Michelle Kerr: All of the technology of the office environment, the professionalism and you know kind of being proper, if you will, like propriety you know.

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Michelle Kerr: But inside, I would say it worked for me, because I am more reserved and perceptive and introspective.

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Michelle Kerr: I learned through the career to engage people and draw them out, I think I learned some of that, through my experience going to church growing up to just being welcoming and i’ve i’ve always longed to have deep authentic connection with people.

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Michelle Kerr: have more meaningful conversation more authentic and real conversation, and maybe that’s because my brother and my cousins were into things I thought was trivial, and I was beyond that wanted to grow up you know.

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Michelle Kerr: So i’ve always wanted to connect beyond surface level thing, so I think I think that’s honestly why i’m a CPA is because.

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Michelle Kerr: It was a means to an end, I wanted connection and intimacy and to matter to be important and what better way to do that, then helping people with their money and finances and then meeting you.

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Michelle Kerr: to advise them then trusting you you’re being talking about very intimate things I mean, these are things people.

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Jason Mefford: People don’t like to talk about their.

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Jason Mefford: Finances right, I mean that in their sexual life.

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Jason Mefford: Those are like the two things that nobody.

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Jason Mefford: Usually wants to talk about.

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Michelle Kerr: Exactly and throughout my career all of my feedback was you know you need to be more technical blah blah blah yeah.

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Michelle Kerr: i’m not a technical person really i’m a relationship person, and in my firm I known as a relationship ninja and it makes sense to me now that I understand that my highest value is connection.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s that’s why I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about this, because you know a lot of times in professions like ours or other professions, we tend to.

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Jason Mefford: treat people like transactions right we did we just got to get it done, you know i’m.

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Jason Mefford: i’m interviewing you for your you know your taxes or whatever i’m working on right now, so I gotta ask you all these questions and I gotta be productive, so I got to be quick about it right.

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Jason Mefford: And there’s really no bedside manner, if you will, that that typically goes along with it right so but you’re a person who.

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Jason Mefford: Who wants that deep authentic connection and focusing on relationships is important right, I mean, in fact, people that I work with it’s like they’re very technical, but they have no relationship skills and it’s like.

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Jason Mefford: Of course you’re having trouble right because you’re not doing it so so I mean kind of talk a little bit about that, what does it look like to actually connect with somebody because I again, I think.

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Jason Mefford: I think a lot of times to people that are technical introverted whatever right it’s like if I go oh Michelle nice picture on the back on your wall and you go Oh, thank you now we’ve connected right that’s not connection.

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Jason Mefford: Explain.

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Jason Mefford: My connection is.

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Michelle Kerr: Okay, so you don’t mean in the context of what I do professionally you just need what.

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Jason Mefford: Just in general to.

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Michelle Kerr: connection means that you’re willing to share enough of yourself to let down the wall, a little bit to.

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Michelle Kerr: expose not necessarily private information, but real.

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Michelle Kerr: Sincere thought and feeling and sentiment around things that matter to you, whether that’s your love of poetry or your love of your dog or travel or vacation sharing enough of you to let someone else identify with that or not, and possibly connect with it and to be.

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Michelle Kerr: relatable.

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Michelle Kerr: You know, to understand like to understand someone and have them reflect back to you.

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Michelle Kerr: That part of you.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I think that’s interesting because, again, you know as you.

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Jason Mefford: As you’ve been talking there’s a lot of other little inflection points.

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Jason Mefford: right that again if if you and I are going to have a connection so let’s just talk a little bit about maybe connection with other people, and then I want to get to the connection with yourself.

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Jason Mefford: That you and I have talked about before, because a lot of people forget that right, but the you know some of the stuff that you’ve said already, you mentioned poetry.

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Jason Mefford: I write poetry too right there’s there’s a connection there you know early in our you know adolescent life we kind of knew that business was for us, I mean I was the nerd that at 13 was like subscribing to forbes magazine and reading a cover to cover it 13 I know it’s like.

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Michelle Kerr: wow I was never.

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Jason Mefford: You you weren’t that bad right but.

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Jason Mefford: But right so so there’s there’s all these different things, your your parents and your growing up, you know there’s a lot of parallels there as well, right.

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Jason Mefford: So, even in going through and talking you’ve shared.

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Jason Mefford: A little bit of you to me that makes you much more relatable.

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Jason Mefford: So, so I mean, how do we How does that connection now come about, I mean if somebody’s trying to connect with another human.

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Jason Mefford: You know what are what are some of the things that you do, because I know that’s like one of your highest values as you love connecting with people, how do you do it.

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Michelle Kerr: I think.

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Michelle Kerr: First of all.

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Michelle Kerr: When you’re uncomfortable with yourself when you’re so shelled up and walled up with yourself it’s very hard to connect with anyone else.

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Michelle Kerr: I mean you’re basically not putting out any points of connection with you know some of your be like when we have something over us like a Shell and I used to actually say to my Shell may sell.

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Michelle Kerr: Like a true outer Shell, but the inside, was really saw I just didn’t it’s a very small circle that got the T that up but I said, and then I would be in my environment before like you were your emotions, while you’re asleep but i’m like.

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Michelle Kerr: You know i’m trying i’m trying.

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Michelle Kerr: But it’s like my hardest so big it just kind of comes out sometimes when i’m my natural self when we’re operating from and a lot of people are going through life.

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Michelle Kerr: operating from a place of hurt and misinterpretations that we learn as young people, their whole experiences of life is from that place.

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Michelle Kerr: And that’s one of the biggest things I learned in the last two years and the lines of allowing everyone had their own experience of life.

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Michelle Kerr: And to have compassion for them, because I was that way to i’ve had moments of my life i’ve been that way where i’m living from that place of my pastor my path.

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Michelle Kerr: This always happens for me this never happens for me i’m always disappointed because.

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Michelle Kerr: Somebody looked at me wrong or somebody didn’t give me the promotion, I wanted, whatever it is so when you’re operating from that place.

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Michelle Kerr: I think it’s very difficult to have genuine connection, but in the simplest form that you can be in connection with the cash person cashier person.

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Michelle Kerr: When you’re checking out in a store for a moment you’re in relationship with them, you can be pleasant and courteous so there’s I think degrees of connection, but the kind of connection that i’m valuing is a very deep.

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Michelle Kerr: Meaningful more raw more real.

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Michelle Kerr: Not the news, not your republican democratic political affiliation your religion but you as a person who are who is Jason without regard to where you live, where you’re from what nationality what religion and what is common there and that’s something I think i’m an instagram type six.

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Michelle Kerr: which is known as the Loyalists and it says there’s nine types and they’re based in different things.

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Michelle Kerr: Six is based in fear and I thought was how I grew up with all rooted in fear fear this don’t do that you’re going to break your head they’re going to crack your head open all those things.

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Michelle Kerr: But one of the things six look for is stability, security.

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Michelle Kerr: structure, I mean it really fits well with accounting right.

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Jason Mefford: No it’s not yeah no wonder that that’s what you chose to do professionally.

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Michelle Kerr: And it was also content, because I didn’t know any accounts I didn’t I started my first job in public accounting and I was six hours away from my hometown and they told me that there were mandatory Saturdays and I was like you mean I can’t go back home.

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Michelle Kerr: I was so naive, I was 21.

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Michelle Kerr: Anyway, and on a little tangent but that’s.

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Jason Mefford: that’s where we go on this on this podcast so that’s just.

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Michelle Kerr: A bit.

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Jason Mefford: But I want I wanted to ask a little bit more about, because I think I think one thing that.

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Jason Mefford: You know i’m sure there’s a lot of people that are listening that Thank you know what I I don’t have the kind of relationships that I really want.

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Jason Mefford: Right, I do feel alone I don’t really feel that intimacy with other people.

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Jason Mefford: And maybe they’ve gone from relationship to relationship to relationship right, and so, then that kind of reinforces makes it worse, because then you’ve got this oh i’m so happy and then all of a sudden there’s this loss and abandonment that happens in life right, and I think what.

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Jason Mefford: The point that you brought up is, you have to be comfortable with yourself first right and so i’ve heard again, you know intimacy if you want to have intimacy into myself, I see.

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Jason Mefford: Right is another way of kind of looking at that so.

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Jason Mefford: So if people want to have connection and want to have intimacy with other people they got to get comfortable with themselves.

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Michelle Kerr: It sounds like right here for sure um yeah i’m you were talking, I was just thinking back in my own life.

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Michelle Kerr: My my home life was good, I had a good home life, but my dad and my mom were not very good examples of communication, particularly my dad.

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Michelle Kerr: So if I look back in my in the past of my life, the people who had influence both of my grandmother’s were very at a very special bond with both of them, and I would say they’re two of the people who knew me better than anyone, maybe even my my first husband and my second husband.

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Michelle Kerr: And why that was they were open and vulnerable, I mean they were they did a great job, but they weren’t like authoritarian with me my my mom’s mom.

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Michelle Kerr: lost her mother at like age eight so inside there was still like this burly girlishness it was like her little girl within her and my little girl.

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Michelle Kerr: Within me became like kindred spirit and she always allowed me see her, she had an onside she loved to dance she told me stories about my grandpa who died when I was three.

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Michelle Kerr: And how he raised my mom and her siblings and that was connection, like, I was getting that connection with her and learning more about my mom and my family and then i’ve had school teachers who’ve been mentors in my life.

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Michelle Kerr: there’s a lady that I had her Seventh, Eighth and Ninth grade for consumer education and cooking and sewing and.

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Michelle Kerr: child development and all these different things and I grew up helping her clean her house through high school and College as extra money.

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Michelle Kerr: And then she had kids and I went with them every year to help, but I look back we’re still friends to this day she was in town, a couple weeks ago and we went to lunch and she’s like 63.

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Michelle Kerr: But she was somebody who invested in me and also allowed me to know her you know she kind of she contributed to that.

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Michelle Kerr: classy woman image and organized together.

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Michelle Kerr: Because my mom wasn’t a good demonstration of health at the time she has now, but she didn’t do that till she was 60, and so I had people in my life, who you know invested in me by sharing and drawing me out and helping me grow and develop and.

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Michelle Kerr: You you you’ve got to be willing to give something of yourself to to have connection you can’t just like leech on to someone that you feel connection from and feel all of their.

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Jason Mefford: You know you got to be able to.

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Michelle Kerr: to gather you know Bruce lipton talks about being in phase and not in phase and have you ever felt like down and not really wanted to go to like.

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Michelle Kerr: A holiday party or any kind of social gatherings you weren’t in the mood, but then you get there and you’re really.

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Michelle Kerr: Having a good time with whoever you’re listening with, and you, you actually get energized by it, because you’re in phase with what they’re talking about.

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Michelle Kerr: that’s what I mean with the shared experience, where together your magnifying a higher vibration vibration and frequency then each of you individually do alone.

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Michelle Kerr: So there’s got to be some give and take in the exchange to feel connected, which means you have to know yourself and be comfortable enough in your own skin to share some of you.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think that that can be hard for a lot of people right, I mean it’s it’s been hard for me at different points in my life.

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Jason Mefford: i’m sure it’s been hard for you at different points in your life right because.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of times so you know we grow up who we are, then we get trained we get indoctrinated with you know, religion and profession, and you know I mean again in our profession, it was when I worked at Arthur Andersen was my was my first gig out of college right and it was it was.

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Jason Mefford: In that firm right, it was very much that you know respectable, you know kind of a thing I mean that you, you had to wear a hat up until the 16th you know I remember one at one of the partners that I knew, you know, he was an old school partner and his first day of showing up at work.

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Jason Mefford: He comes in, he doesn’t have a briefcase.

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Jason Mefford: And everybody looks at him and they’re like where’s your briefcase he’s like I don’t have anything to carry in my briefcase well you can’t show up to the client’s office without a briefcase so they stopped and bought a briefcase.

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Jason Mefford: So he walked into the client with.

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Jason Mefford: Nothing in his briefcase, but that was kind of the image that was expected you know if you were a partner in the 50s you had to mow your lawn.

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Jason Mefford: In khakis and a button down in case a client drove by right, I mean there’s there’s like all these pressures of.

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Jason Mefford: of not being necessarily who we are and so we get taught to put on a face of what we expect everybody else once but then that kind of hides us, and I think makes it more difficult for us to have this kind of connection that you’re talking about.

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Michelle Kerr: For sure for sure, and I think before the times that we’re in now.

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Michelle Kerr: You know, with coven and everything, where people are even more isolated.

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Michelle Kerr: it’s almost magnifying the need for or the fact that the state of business that we all lived in for so long, going going going, you know that, where I grew up, we had a swing on the front porch and people actually were on the other, Porches and you would talk.

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Michelle Kerr: And that doesn’t really happen anymore so everything has become so transactional.

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Michelle Kerr: In our exchanges with one another, I mean most of the time we’re on our phones and barely like even looking up to make contact so it’s also about being present.

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Michelle Kerr: With who you’re with and turning off your devices and giving your full attention and you know really connecting over something meaningful and not just picking up the kids or can you get milk on the way home or I paid that bill saying.

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Jason Mefford: Well, no, and then I had an experience this this last week because I want you to share a little bit more about kind of some of the.

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Jason Mefford: Some of the stuff that you’ve learned and worked on here, but you just kind of reminded me of you know, sometimes we end up being transactional we just.

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Jason Mefford: You know, like you said we text people I mean I remember I texted somebody this week, you know, and it was kind of a transactional sort of text and and there were a response back was you know hello, and then whatever and it’s like all of a sudden, I just sat with that and i’m like shed.

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Jason Mefford: I didn’t even have the common courtesy to like do an intro like hey how’s it going or use the person’s name it was just like.

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Jason Mefford: You know sort of a thing and it’s like so I I recovered I got back in integrity and I sent a message back.

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Jason Mefford: You know that was that was more connecting in its nature, instead of transactional more about the relationship, but you know yeah we we we tend to do that a lot, a lot of the the niceties the common courtesies the taken the time to sit in the front swing and talk to your neighbors.

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Jason Mefford: yeah it is really kind of gone which isolates us that much more.

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Jason Mefford: In I know you know you’ve you’ve gone through this whole.

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Jason Mefford: kind of back to that you know you’ve got a.

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Jason Mefford: you’ve got to be comfortable with yourself.

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Jason Mefford: In order to share and have the connection so let’s let’s go there, a little bit, because I know you being your friend, I know you’ve you have done a lot of work.

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Jason Mefford: yeah on this in the last couple of years, so maybe you know kind of share what’s your journey been like because people that want to go through the same journey they need, they need to have somebody to model.

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Jason Mefford: Right and show.

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Jason Mefford: what’s possible and you are somebody who shows what’s possible right, I mean you’re in a totally different place now than you were a few years ago.

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Michelle Kerr: I am i’m going to go back in time, a little bit again so as a young person I think i’ve always been more reserved, not the first to speak up or the life of the party, but.

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Michelle Kerr: Very introspective and perceptive but not like in a backwards way, maybe a little bit as a young person, but I grew out of that relatively early like as a teenager.

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Michelle Kerr: But my.

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Michelle Kerr: My ability to to connect with people and share.

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Michelle Kerr: I think I always knew where I was, but I also lived a lot of my life from a place of meeting other people permission or approval of what I doing like.

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Michelle Kerr: You know society teaches us that achievement is self worth and achievement means you love yourself and that isn’t true when I got my degree, but I passed the exam.

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Michelle Kerr: When I made partner in the firm those aren’t the things that make me feel self love and self worth those are things I did or achieve.

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Michelle Kerr: And I think I felt pretty confident in who I was, but I was also just insecure and indecisive with my decisions and looking for someone else to say yes that’s a good idea, very externally validated and it hasn’t been until the last two years, that I realized.

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Michelle Kerr: And I went through life letting with the stinking thinking like.

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Michelle Kerr: These things keep happening to me why does this happen to me I don’t understand i’m such a bad person.

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Michelle Kerr: Well, no one’s going to advocate for you, if you don’t advocate for yourself and so really learning to use my voice and speak up for what I think what I say what I need what i’m paid my value, whatever it is, been really empowering for me.

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Michelle Kerr: In the last two years.

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Michelle Kerr: I would say that.

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Michelle Kerr: I went through a period of time after my divorce.

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Michelle Kerr: That I just got to kind of a place of like this emptiness and it was right when I made partner.

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Michelle Kerr: We sold the House that I lived in for 13 years.

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Michelle Kerr: I had always wanted to have children, on my own, and I didn’t I married somebody with kids and i’m great relationship with my two stepdaughters I adore them and i’m glad they’re in my life, now we went through some hard periods.

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Michelle Kerr: So there was just the feeling of like i’ve had everything planned out and nothing has gone according to plan.

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Michelle Kerr: And it was I stayed in that state for quite a while and that victim last day and looking back and knowing what I know now, I can see that I basically abandoned myself most of my life, I had a fear of being alone or being abandoned.

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Michelle Kerr: Like I would say things like everyone I love leave we a lot of loss in our family death from cancer and stuff and then of course the marriages.

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Michelle Kerr: Both both of them I married my high school sweetheart to start and he’s been my only ever partner get all these affairs and.

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Michelle Kerr: I just kept thinking like what is wrong with me but i’m the common denominator in all this, and what I now know is that I was so uncomfortable with myself, like, I could not be alone with me I couldn’t when I moved out of the House and into an apartment.

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Michelle Kerr: I would just stay gone all day until it was time to go to bed if that wasn’t tax season, I would play tennis every night another week or so to my brother’s house and see my nieces.

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Michelle Kerr: I just numbed out on Overdoing i’d come to work because I knew what needed to be done here, I had something to prove I had made partner my clients needed me.

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Michelle Kerr: I could feel important I could feel like i’m matter, because these people need me.

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Michelle Kerr: But the truth was that I could not be alone with myself, because that would mean that I would have to feel all the feelings of this empty empty accomplishment that meant nothing because nothing else was here, but I sat in that for way too long until I met our mentor.

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Michelle Kerr: Which is where I met you, and that has been the, this is the most.

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Michelle Kerr: at ease with me and self compassionate with me that i’ve ever been in my life in the last two years.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because i’ve.

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Jason Mefford: i’ve had again our lives parallel in so many different ways right and big shout out to Jim Norton as well, so he’s he’s he’s who Michelle was referring to, but yeah cuz he’s he’s made a big impact in your life in my life and thousands of other people’s lives as well right because.

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Jason Mefford: Because it is that you know and that’s why I wanted to talk to you again, too, because so much of the time you know, like you said we don’t want to deal with our own shit.

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Jason Mefford: And we want to blame everything else, and the circumstances that we’re in, and we want to thank oh it can’t be me.

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Jason Mefford: When it’s usually us right so it’s likely if you don’t have the relationships that you want it’s usually a reflection back on us, and until we take care of.

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Jason Mefford: ourselves and do some of the be comfortable actually being with ourselves, I mean that’s you know why are so many people busy go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go do all the time, I think it’s exactly what you were doing what I was doing.

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You know.

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Jason Mefford: there’s there’s benefit for it.

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Jason Mefford: right we we don’t have to look ourselves in the mirror, you know and and that’s really but that’s where the healing.

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Jason Mefford: comes as well right, so you know I know we made reference to poetry before I mean what are what are some of the ways that you’ve been able to help get comfortable again with yourself love.

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Jason Mefford: yourself the be comfortable with who you are so that you can make those connections with other people as well.

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Michelle Kerr: that’s a huge.

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Jason Mefford: that’s why I asked.

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Jason Mefford: I asked him.

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Michelle Kerr: I remember.

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Michelle Kerr: In the first round of the transformational coaching program where we met maybe like and I had joined that program i’ve been listening to the podcast and it said.

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Michelle Kerr: join the waitlist I was like Okay, and I thought, maybe that’ll help me as a partner in the CPA firm, but I also was curious about the subconscious mind my brother had been talking to me quite a bit about Bruce lipton and patterns and the speed of the subconscious brain, which is.

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Michelle Kerr: formed by the time we’re eight and the slow processor of the conscious brain and I was like oh my gosh I had with 44 years and overpriced.

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Back then.

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Michelle Kerr: And so I got on the waitlist and I thought that, when the program started, I was there for business and like four or five weeks, then Jim said on the call.

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Michelle Kerr: You cannot grow and evolve as a human being, when you’re constantly hating on that human being and I just started crying because I realized.

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Michelle Kerr: i’d grown I grew up in a very my dad was pretty critical but I adopted an inner critic.

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Michelle Kerr: That took up residence up here and stayed with me my whole life and I had a difficult time receiving constructive feedback because whatever you wanted to give me constructive feedback, I was already beating myself up about it in my head so to get that back to just just hurt.

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Michelle Kerr: So.

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Michelle Kerr: I lost my train of thought, with where I was going with that, but yeah the inner critic was there and.

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Michelle Kerr: After that first round and did I had changed my intention from business to.

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Michelle Kerr: sell for and then from self worth to self love, because I realize i’m being very unloving with myself.

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Michelle Kerr: I went through a different program that one of the coaches offered in the summer on.

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Michelle Kerr: Releasing emotional weight, basically, and there were a lot of journal prompts and that and in that journal writing I remember how much I love writing.

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Michelle Kerr: But also so much poured out of me like when the pen and the paper it just kept going and I love, I read the things I was saying to myself.

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Michelle Kerr: And I thought I would never say that anyone even somebody didn’t like I would never use these words they’re full of hate and that’s how my self talk was.

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Michelle Kerr: So initially was just becoming aware of the records that were on playing in my head over and over.

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Michelle Kerr: About hi looked or my way or my voice was one of them I didn’t like my voice, I had been told that I mumbled when I talk and what are you trying to say I can’t understand you said, all these.

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Michelle Kerr: messages about why people don’t listen to me or take me seriously stories they made up to support my stories that my voice had something wrong with it, and now i’m i’ve had so many people tell me that my voice is called me and reassuring.

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Michelle Kerr: So yeah I was fixing myself talk and then just lots of journaling and unpacking things and taking myself for a walk or committing to not eat at my desk or.

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Michelle Kerr: To not just make a smoothie and grab and go like actually sit down and prepare a meal and eating mindfully not in front of my work.

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Michelle Kerr: Little things that I I had just in that two or three year period after my divorce gotten in a pattern of being on the go grabbing look whatever to keep me going to do my job and not take care of myself.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and it sounds like that you know when you started changing you did take time to take care of yourself right because, again, sometimes our product, you know, all we got to be productive that’s why we do that our desk right.

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Jason Mefford: Instead of it’s not really going to make that much difference if you go for 15 minutes or half an hour and actually separate it right.

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Jason Mefford: But, but also, I think some some tangible things you know that you brought up there with with the writing with a journal prompting you know, I know, for me, I.

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Jason Mefford: When I was going through a tough part in my career, I started writing again, you know so i’ve I have half of a novel.

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Jason Mefford: Actually, that is, that is written I don’t know if it’ll ever but it, but it was very therapeutic.

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Jason Mefford: right for me and like you said you know I use poetry, for the same thing journal journaling.

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Jason Mefford: use the same thing, because I think sometimes like you said we don’t realize how hard we’re being on ourself until we get it out and you went back and you read those words and you’re like man I would never say that to somebody that I hate it.

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Jason Mefford: Why am I saying that to myself right, and then you start to have the awareness so now, you can start start doing things different.

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Michelle Kerr: Things to this particular had 30 days i’m journal prompts yeah the weekend to catch up so went over six weeks so five days a week, there were prompts to follow.

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Michelle Kerr: But I was just surprised at what came out the volume and I like to write, and I think i’ve just gotten in the habit so much at work and being on the computer.

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Michelle Kerr: That there’s a different part of your brain that engage when it’s writing and.

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Michelle Kerr: It just flows more easily and it taps into that right side of the brain as well that creative part, and that is where I remembered that I love I love to write letters and poems and cards and.

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Michelle Kerr: I had been stifled that part of me a little bit, and then there were some other exercises in that program because a lot of things had to do with my body weight as well during that period of time I had an emergency surgery my gallbladder.

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Michelle Kerr: Where resentment lives.

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Just so you know.

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Michelle Kerr: And my weight changed after that and it hadn’t been the same, I was making that mean.

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Michelle Kerr: All kinds of things, and one of the journal prompts was to go back over your life and look at different pictures of yourself at all different ages and stages of life.

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Michelle Kerr: and think about what kind of messages and self talk were you saying to yourself, then we unhappy with your legs or your eyes or whatever now you look at me like we’re good there.

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Michelle Kerr: So we always don’t like where we are where we’re at and then later we’re like Oh, I was good, back then, I mean you wouldn’t say we have their seasons of life, you wouldn’t say to.

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Michelle Kerr: Your kid I mean I have my own kids but you wouldn’t say when they’re 14 like I liked you better when you were for.

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Michelle Kerr: Joe you celebrate all the ages, that they were right.

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Michelle Kerr: it’s the season.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and just like you know I had a lot of acne when I was 14 right so it’s like it’s like again and again my parents never were like oh you’re ugly you have acne.

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Jason Mefford: right but but did I say that to myself, probably write a little bit as as you go through it so being careful of of what we’re actually saying that way, but I think it’s I think it’s interesting too because.

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Jason Mefford: You know i’ve experienced this you have experiences a lot of people I talked to have experiences to that has made me kind of realize that.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as adults so much of the time we’re like I gotta find myself I gotta find my purpose I got it whatever right, and so we end up spinning ourselves around.

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Jason Mefford: and almost everybody that i’ve talked to we’ve always known what it was go back to when we were somewhere between the ages of about eight and 1514.

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Jason Mefford: There was something about who we were and what we thought the world was going to be like that we usually forget right from those teenage years up until our adulthood.

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Jason Mefford: And I think it kind of seems like that’s similar for you as well, right, that is your reconnecting with yourself getting more intimate with yourself you’re really just unlocking that girl that’s always been there, that you built the wall around.

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Michelle Kerr: yeah that when I said get your feet on the ground and get in your head and do all that analytical stuff.

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Michelle Kerr: Get out of your head get your feet on the ground and quit being so dreamy, I think, is what I call it.

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Jason Mefford: um.

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Jason Mefford: The dreaming is free sorry that.

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Jason Mefford: Just went through my head.

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Michelle Kerr: period in time, where I said I don’t know how to dream.

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Michelle Kerr: So I stopped saying that and just let myself like go out ponder something that I wanted to do and then like one of them was, I want to live on a Catamaran for at least a month or so.

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Michelle Kerr: I want to be near the shore, I want to go out during the day for smart excursions but at night, when we talk, I want to be near the shore.

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Michelle Kerr: i’m still like as I play with this more Emily you don’t want to be in a boozy hotel or I can see my Catamaran but i’m in the hotel at night i’m not sure what is sleep on it a lot of private stuff so like somebody asked me one time I have you ever looked up the prices.

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Michelle Kerr: Oh, I didn’t I did now, and you know I think about it and I let myself, like the play or flirt with the idea I think some of it is just being curious and flirting with these ideas like what would that be like What would it be like to write what would it be like to live on the Catamaran.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and to realize that it is it’s Okay, for it right and again that we can be.

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Jason Mefford: who we are.

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Jason Mefford: And and not have to live within the boundaries of what we think other people are expecting.

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Jason Mefford: Right now, some people might drop off from our life as a result of that that’s always something that can happen right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah you and I have gone through divorces and relationships we were living proof folks right when you change sometimes other people in your life don’t don’t carry on with you but.

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Jason Mefford: But at the end it’s worth it, I think right, I mean you.

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Michelle Kerr: Know it’s like Jim says it’s only going to last and relationship with someone as common as your identities are you so if your identity is one thing and mine’s a different way we’re gonna we’re gonna fall away eventually.

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Michelle Kerr: But again it’s like knowing thyself knowing thyself and it helps me, it has helped me so much.

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Michelle Kerr: My friend race helped me with this when I was letting go of something after my divorce like letters and cards and.

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Michelle Kerr: I got emotional and she was like well, what is it the card day and i’m like well they thanked me for my sacrifice my role in his kids flies and.

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Michelle Kerr: So a lot about his kids and she’s like that you’re so close with them and they call you and you guys love each other and you go to lunch like your relationship is a testament to that So do you need the card to tell you that, or is the relationship living and showing that enough.

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Michelle Kerr: And she shared with me that when her mom died.

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Michelle Kerr: She looks and in the past, just going through relationships who’ve been in that helped her to know her to think about what did I receive from that relationship, and I was very free with me because I did have takeaways like that most recent marriage grew me and allowed me to receive.

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Michelle Kerr: Open up my world as far as travel like five star travel lots of places around the world, and just seeing the different topography of the world and the people and the places and all the beauty, that is.

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Michelle Kerr: In creation, we are all one everything is one the places the food the beauty, you and I, the animals were all created from that same innate intelligence and it’s it’s inside the fabric of who we are.

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Michelle Kerr: me.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think that that that kind of you know ties it around in a in a big bow in some ways as well, and what we’ve been talking about is that.

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Jason Mefford: We are all connected.

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Jason Mefford: In anyway.

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Jason Mefford: Well, how do we choose to connect.

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Jason Mefford: Right, are we going to be loving to ourselves loving to other people, or are we going to you know show up and do things that.

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Jason Mefford: is not how we would want to be treated so why would we treat anyone in a thing that way as well, because what you do to someone else you’re doing to yourself.

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Jason Mefford: And is that right yeah in again, I mean, I think you know again your your desire for this connection I think everybody listening, we all have a desire.

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Jason Mefford: For connection right but it sounds like from your story where that connection really starts.

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Jason Mefford: Is inside right sure the connection starts with me and, as you change as you love yourself more than the connection can actually happen with other people.

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Michelle Kerr: I think people are craving that that real vulnerability unfortunately we’re in an environment where a lot of division is President and the media feeds that.

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Michelle Kerr: So, setting aside everything that’s going on in those issues and I was never one to like to talk about politics i’ve always kind of just navigated around that and just.

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Michelle Kerr: Thought to ask people questions more about them and their life and anytime there was an opening or something like I would find the common ground i’m always looking for the common ground.

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Michelle Kerr: That I could identify and then I share a part of me.

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Michelle Kerr: That matches that to reflect back to them and to you know, let them feel seen and heard and be present and it’s like.

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Michelle Kerr: we’re meant to be in Community we’re meant to be known and to know others.

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Michelle Kerr: And there’s so much isolation, right now, when you can look at everyone from that place of compassion and allowing them to have their own experience of life and not trying to put.

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Michelle Kerr: Your opinions on them or your religion or any of that math no math they were no be worth and then like without all of that going on.

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Michelle Kerr: You and I can have a conversation and be real and see where the common ground.

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Jason Mefford: And I think for everybody listening, you might want to rewind because Michelle just gave you like the golden relationship.

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Jason Mefford: Key if you will right, where she said, well, maybe i’ll repeat it, how about that right.

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Jason Mefford: That when you because again your partners and other people call you the relationship ninja right so here you go folks are some relationship ninja help is find the common ground right, I mean you, you and I have traveled literally all over the world we’ve met people all over the place.

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Jason Mefford: We can all find something in common with anyone right.

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Jason Mefford: So.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so instead of looking at differences find something common ground share something relevant about yourself.

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Jason Mefford: right because, again, you said earlier on, you know we have to often share or give before we receive that’s The other thing that so many people don’t understand you get after you give.

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Jason Mefford: Right say that again folks you get after you give so unless you’re willing to give you’re not going to have some of that intimacy and connection that you’re that you’re really searching for.

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Jason Mefford: Oh.

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Michelle Kerr: i’ll just say i’m still a student.

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Michelle Kerr: relationship expert okay telling you what connection mean to you, but I did write a poem I love to share with you.

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Jason Mefford: I would love that I was hoping, you were gonna feel comfortable doing that.

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Michelle Kerr: Well, this I didn’t hear this music for but something you just said, made this one of mine and I wrote those I think back in May.

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Michelle Kerr: As possible possibility to include in a book preference or an usher it is, I am infinite wisdom, I am infinite grace, I am a powerful creator I take up space.

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Michelle Kerr: I am peace joy and love, I am innately divine perfectly imperfect infinitely sublime i’m here to serve, I am here to explore, I am a beacon of hope, I am here to implore.

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Michelle Kerr: Mind body and spirit awaken again I am being called up it’s now not when my gifts are needed, I recognize them now no more fear and hiding I lay all of that down connecting to others stanton mother restores within me and knowing aboard.

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Michelle Kerr: A desire to know you to see and to hear to acknowledge and honor why you are here.

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Michelle Kerr: You reflect me and I reflect you when we honor that there’s nothing to do for each one’s experience allowance and great humanity reflected What a beautiful place.

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Michelle Kerr: I welcome you, along with a grateful heart, the door is always open when you’re ready.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you for sharing that yeah it’s.

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Jason Mefford: me yeah and I think that’s probably a perfect place to end, you know this is again, as I told you folks at the beginning.

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Jason Mefford: It wasn’t going to be anything like you were expecting and it’s not and what Michelle shared today.

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Jason Mefford: Is stuff that we all need to hear we’re all searching, you know, for that connectedness and and.

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Jason Mefford: sharing with you how to do it and there is so much power actually in that last poem that you just read there.

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Jason Mefford: that’s one of those you could pick apart and listen to and read over and over and over again it’s going to mean something different to you all the time, so, so thank you, my friend, I knew that I had to have you on here and and talk and I really.

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Jason Mefford: really appreciate it, I might have to have you back in the future too, because there’s, so much so many other places, we could have gone to the.

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Michelle Kerr: Good work you’re doing in the world, and your impact and your personal impact in my life he’s been a great friend and you are referring to me last fall and I really appreciate you today.

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Jason Mefford: Well, thank you, I appreciate, you and I think our relationship again it’s it’s a testament to that connectedness and that.

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Jason Mefford: We impact each other, we are each other, we are all connected and we need we need each other to become our highest and best selves as well.

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yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you.

In today’s episode I want to talk to you about music. More specifically the REM song “Losing My Religion”. Believe it or not, this song isn’t literally about religion.

Since there is a lot of meaning behind the original term “losing my religion” as well as the ACTUAL meaning of the song to it’s writers, there are a lot of great talking points that I will be bringing up with you today!

…and if you are wondering, yes I will be playing an acoustic cover of the song. So tune in!

and then take a look at the video from REM. This song is good on so many levels. Look at the imagery and how this song resonates with you at this time in your life.

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright well today is going to be one of those jam sessions, where it’s just you and me talking and, if you look at the title of this episode it’s losing my religion.

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Jason Mefford: And so you might be sitting there thinking, what are we going to be talking about religion today Jason is that what we’re talking about.

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Jason Mefford: Well, maybe we’ll talk about that, but maybe we’ll be talking about the great song from rem losing my religion.

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Jason Mefford: This is one of those songs has been stuck in my head for about a month and just realize that it’s probably time to just sit down and talk through some of the lyrics because i’m being told that this is a podcast that’s gotta come out so with that stay tuned and roll that episode.

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Jason Mefford: All right, well again today we’re going to be talking about losing my religion, now that it’s it’s a very interesting song from rem and and I just want to want to preface a little bit before we get started today.

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Jason Mefford: Because you know again if you’ve been listening to me for a while you realize that music is an important part of my life.

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Jason Mefford: And in i’m guessing since you’re listening, maybe it is for you to and, and so I wanted to share like I said, this is one of those songs that’s just been going over and over and over in my head.

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Jason Mefford: For at least a month now, and just knew that I need to do a podcast episode on it don’t know exactly where it’s going to go but.

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Jason Mefford: it’s one of those times when we get to just kind of reflect and so whatever you do listen to this entire episode because there’s going to be something in today’s episode that is going to stick with you.

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Jason Mefford: And so, let me, let me just share with you a little example I had yesterday, one of my friends mentioned or made reference to the the the goddess Athena and so, of course, the way my brain goes, most of the time, as I think in I think in movie lines song lyrics things like that, and so.

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Jason Mefford: When she mentioned Athena obviously I thought about the hoop because they have a great song called Athena.

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Jason Mefford: That data that that can remember layers right now but anyway that’s what today’s episode is about anyway.

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Jason Mefford: But what it did was it, it sent me down a rabbit hole for a little while and I ended up listening to quite a few of the whose songs whose songs the who’s as little habit and costello kind of.

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Jason Mefford: comedy for you, there you go little smile on your face today right.

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Jason Mefford: But you know i’ve been listening to the who for decades Okay, but yesterday when I sat down and was going through and listening to some of the songs I just turned on the lyrics.

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Jason Mefford: Because on apple music, you can sit usually sit and read the lyrics as your as you’re listening to it as well, and what I noticed was.

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Jason Mefford: A theme in those songs That was something I needed to hear yesterday okay.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s personal so i’m not going to go into it with you but but here’s here’s here’s one of the learnings for today and that you’re going to see as we get into today’s episode is that.

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Jason Mefford: things come along in our life at different times, and they have different meanings for us at different points in our life.

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Jason Mefford: And so again i’d listened to those songs that I listened to yesterday for literally decades probably hundreds of times i’ve listened to some of those songs.

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Jason Mefford: But the lyrics in those songs yesterday meant something different to me, and it was something that I needed to hear yesterday to help give me some advice and direction in my life.

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Jason Mefford: And so again that’s what i’m going with today and today’s episode is that you know we’re going to be talking about losing my religion now for some of you that might mean well, maybe literally losing your religion.

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Jason Mefford: You know, going away from an organized religion that you had before, but but, as I said, I want to, I want to talk mainly in terms of the rem song.

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Jason Mefford: Because it’s one of those songs that is a great song, but you can at different times in your life, you can see yourself in this song okay.

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Jason Mefford: Now, when it first came out the record company actually didn’t want to put it out, they thought it was going to cause a whole bunch of.

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Jason Mefford: backlash with the religious community as a result of it now that term losing my religion, it has nothing to do with religion okay.

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Jason Mefford: But the record company had some stories and thought oh my gosh we’re talking about religion we’ve got the word in there, people are going to be pissed off about this well the term actually is an old saying from the southern us that when when someone.

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Jason Mefford: Quote unquote loses their religion, it means that you feel like you’re at the end of your rope okay that you’re at the end of your rope.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s the point at time and time at which the moment of politeness gives way to anger okay and i’m sure that there’s been several times in your life when you felt like you were at your ropes and.

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Jason Mefford: And you were just pissed off and angry and tired and not wanting to take it any more right and so again, maybe that maybe the term came around again because some people, you know, sometimes get at the end of the rope for something like religion and say screw it i’m not doing that anymore.

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Jason Mefford: You know and move away from it, but really, as I said, it’s it’s a term that that has that, meaning that you’re at the end of your rope.

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Jason Mefford: And it usually gives way to some sort of anger you want some sort of change in your life, so this is a great song talking about change, and as you go through and look at the lyrics and i’m going to talk about them a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: And kind of what they met mean to me or how we can see ourselves in this as well, but ultimately, as you listen to it, the lyrics are going to mean something to you.

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Jason Mefford: And so, again as a curious learner what your job is is to figure out what the hell, does it mean for me okay.

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Jason Mefford: i’m going to kind of tell you a little bit about what it means for me and maybe it means the same for you, maybe it doesn’t right, but you just have to have to go with it go with the flow and see what you’re supposed to hear today when you’re listening to this podcast.

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Jason Mefford: Now, interestingly enough, you know again that’s where the term losing my religion comes from that’s why they chose that as the as the, as the title for the song but what’s funny is the song was actually written.

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Jason Mefford: About unrequited love and what that means is someone loves someone, but the other person doesn’t love them right and so again that causes a lot of frustration.

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Jason Mefford: You know, because you want to be with someone you love someone but they’re not responding to you right and a lot of us again, we feel that way.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe in romantic relationships, but other points in time in our life and other relationships and and other things we’re doing as well.

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Jason Mefford: We might want something, but the other person doesn’t want the same thing, or we may want our life to go a certain way, but the universe wants our life to go a different way okay.

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Jason Mefford: And so, like I said at various times in our life we end up in those kind of situations okay so let’s jump in.

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Jason Mefford: today’s episode further now, so let me, let me go ahead and get all situated here and actually if you haven’t heard the song before this will be familiar to your will will be new to you, but if you’re if you’re familiar with it, then you just kind of sing along as we get going so.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t have the old mandolin that they have at the beginning of it but we’ll just go with what we got today alright So here we go.

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Jason Mefford: Oh.

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Jason Mefford: it’s bigger than you.

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Jason Mefford: not me.

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Jason Mefford: In your.

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Jason Mefford: Saturday.

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Jason Mefford: that’s me.

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Jason Mefford: that’s me and the spot light.

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Jason Mefford: up with you.

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Jason Mefford: know if I can do.

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Jason Mefford: Oh no I.

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Jason Mefford: haven’t setting.

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Jason Mefford: See.

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Jason Mefford: Every waking hour i’m choosing my confession.

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Jason Mefford: try and keep an eye on you.

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Jason Mefford: Know i’m so.

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Jason Mefford: Sad.

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Jason Mefford: slip.

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Jason Mefford: me to my.

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Jason Mefford: spotify all these fantasy come flailing around now i’ve said to me.

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Jason Mefford: same.

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Jason Mefford: thing.

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Jason Mefford: Alright, so we won’t play the whole song, but just wanted to go through, and because, like I said, you know as i’ve been sitting here thinking about this, these lyrics have been milling themselves over in my mind.

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Jason Mefford: figured I need to get it out, I need to get it out there, so here you go my friends let’s talk about losing your religion.

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Jason Mefford: Because again there’s a lot of lessons to learn from this song, so let me just go through and talk about a few of the lyrics we’ll see how long we go today.

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Jason Mefford: But here we go, so the first line right oh life is bigger it’s bigger than you right and sometimes we tend to get stuck in our shit.

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Jason Mefford: And just think and forget to put in perspective, how big life is life is bigger than us it’s bigger than you and the next line, and you are not me.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, the lengths that I will go to the distance in your eyes and how much of the time, you know as we’re going through life, do we get stuck kind of comparing ourselves to other people.

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Jason Mefford: And we look at or or we make our life small because we’re living it to try to meet someone else’s expectations right.

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Jason Mefford: So you know again the lengths that I will go to the distance in your eyes, so this person is trying to do things to get this other person to pay attention to them.

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Jason Mefford: But the other person ain’t paying attention okay so here’s The lesson folks right.

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Jason Mefford: If you’re doing things and you’re trying to get other people to pay attention to you and trying to be the way that you think they want them to that they want you to be.

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Jason Mefford: just stop Okay, because it’s probably not going to be reciprocated plus you’re being someone that you are not right, so at that point just be yourself just be yourself okay now.

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Jason Mefford: let’s go on to some other lyrics that’s me in the corner that’s me in the spot light Okay, how many times in your life have you felt like you’re in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Right, because at different points in our life we all end up in a corner and or we end up in the spotlight.

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Jason Mefford: And at different times in our life, we are in the corner or in the spotlight, and we move back and forth Okay, so if you’re one of those people that feels like you’re stuck in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe ask yourself why am I in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Why am I in the corner, am I in the corner because someone put me in the corner and told me, I have to be in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Or did I put myself there right because a lot of times I know in my life, I found myself sitting in the corner, being the wallflower feeling like that’s where I belong at this time i’m not worthy to be anywhere else.

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Jason Mefford: Or maybe somebody has told me to go there and i’ve given my power to them by allowing them to put me in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Well, let me tell you right don’t put baby in a corner for you’ve heard that term before right So if you feel like you’re in the corner and you don’t want to be there, get out of the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes we get shoved into the spotlight as well, and sometimes that can be a little uncomfortable as well right so are you in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: Or are you in the spotlight okay Now I want to also mention the video the that that that rem did with this and i’ll and i’ll i’ll plan to put a link to it down below, but there is beautiful imagery.

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Jason Mefford: In this video about things like spilled milk and a fallen angel okay.

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Jason Mefford: And the reason for that again as we’re going through and talking about this is how much of the time, do we put ourselves in the corner, because we spilled some milk.

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Jason Mefford: figuratively speaking right and how much pain and anguish do we put it on herself for doing something like spilling milk at the end of the day, it’s just milk you just clean it up and you move on right.

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Jason Mefford: or a fallen angel you know, again, what if what if we’re not living up to other people’s expectations of what they think we need to be do we end up becoming that fallen angel as well right so.

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Jason Mefford: watch the video again you’re going to see some things in there i’ve watched that video over and over now.

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Jason Mefford: For this last month and there’s always something else that kind of POPs out at me with that so so again, are you feeling like you’re in the corner.

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Jason Mefford: And maybe you don’t want to be there, maybe you want to be back in the spotlight well it’s time to move there right the next line losing my religion.

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Jason Mefford: Trying to keep up with you now that’s a very interesting line right how much of our life is spent comparing ourselves to other people.

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Jason Mefford: or trying to be like someone else when that is not who we are right so again if i’m at the end of my rope i’m tired i’m angry i’m not going to do it anymore.

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Jason Mefford: Well, maybe you feel that way in your life right now quit trying to be someone else quit trying to follow after and keep up with someone else when really all you got to do is be yourself okay.

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Jason Mefford: So, again trying to keep up with you and I don’t know if I can do it.

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Jason Mefford: right because, again, a lot of times we spend ourselves spinning wheels trying to go after things that we think we want, but maybe we don’t actually really want it at the end of the day, okay.

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Jason Mefford: Now the next slide oh no i’ve said too much I haven’t said enough, so I feel this way a lot okay to where sometimes I feel like.

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Jason Mefford: I probably said too much other times I feel like well I haven’t said enough well how many times in your life have you been that way as well right so sometimes on the podcast here on videos that I do.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes I feel like man I didn’t really give enough I didn’t I didn’t say enough maybe I wasn’t strong enough in what I was actually saying.

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Jason Mefford: Or maybe I said too much right maybe I feel like i’ve gone over the line and i’ve had a few people that have told me that right hey Jason I love your stuff but man that last thing ooh I don’t know about that right.

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Jason Mefford: Well, but again, those are a lot of the feelings, maybe of insecurity that we might have that’s normal part of being alive and being a human right.

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Jason Mefford: And so again something something to think about right now here’s here’s some interesting next lines right, I thought that I heard you laughing I thought that I heard you think saying.

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Jason Mefford: I think I saw you try now here’s some interesting stuff right if we’re sitting over in the corner and we see people laughing and they’re looking over at us.

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Jason Mefford: Do we think they’re laughing at us a lot of times we do right.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, maybe that’s one where i’m just going to leave it at that point right because, again, sometimes i’ve said enough, sometimes I haven’t said enough but you’ll get that anyway.

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Jason Mefford: Now what’s what’s interesting again is i’m not going to go through, word for word line for line on this, but.

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Jason Mefford: As I told you at the beginning, right there there’s a lot of wisdom in this song that, as you go back and you think about in your own life.

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Jason Mefford: Where do you fit at this time, right now, one of the lines that really jumped out at me is.

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Jason Mefford: This section okay can sit so and listen to the word, listen to the lyrics that they did because again when a songwriter doesn’t have very much space for lyrics.

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Jason Mefford: And so you’re very, very careful about the lyrics you use and why you use them in the way that you use them okay so consider this consider this the hint of the century OK so again to consider this as consider this consider this the hint of the century.

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Jason Mefford: that’s telling you that something important is coming up right because they’re telling you to consider it twice and they’re telling you look, this is the hint of the century century.

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Jason Mefford: Consider this the slip that brought me to my kneel to my knees OK so again, this is something that apparently when this person learned this brought them to their knees and so again, you can go with all the imagery that you want to there.

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Jason Mefford: You know, in that sometimes again when we dropped to our knees were kind of begging we’re allowing we’re giving up which hence again right being at the end of one’s rope So what is this hint of the century here you go you’re ready, what if all these fantasies come flailing around.

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Jason Mefford: So what does that actually mean right, what if all these fantasies come flailing around now if you drop down a little bit further in the song, they say, but that was just a dream just a dream.

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Jason Mefford: So again, maybe one thing for you to consider is what if a lot of the things that you believe are just a fantasy.

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Jason Mefford: What if a lot of the stories that you’re telling yourself are just a fantasy, would you live, your life differently.

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Jason Mefford: If that were true.

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Jason Mefford: Because a lot of us end up staying stuck where we are, because we believe.

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Jason Mefford: that things are are real, we believe that we have, we have a lot of stories that go along with who we are, what we are okay.

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Jason Mefford: and often the end up keeping us stuck well what if those things were just fantasies What if those were just stories, you were telling yourself.

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Jason Mefford: That aren’t true anyway Okay, and this again is is one of the keys to learn in life and i’m going to repeat it a few times so i’m probably going to say it too much in this particular instance right.

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Jason Mefford: Most of what we believe is not actually true.

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Jason Mefford: And we get to choose which stories we want to believe.

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Jason Mefford: Now I know for many of you that’s going to go right over your head and that’s fine that’s fine, because at the time that you need to hear it you’re going to hear it and you’re going to get it Okay, but again.

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Jason Mefford: At some point in your life you’re going to wake up and go Why am I doing this Why am I doing this anyway, this doesn’t make any sense right.

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Jason Mefford: Because what ends up happening so much of the time in our life is a story that we believe serves us for a while, until it no longer serves us and you might have heard me say that, before right.

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Jason Mefford: So again, for me, I grew up religious I grew up going to an organized religion, at some point in my life I realized that story, no longer serves me.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t believe those things I don’t believe that my life is better with those things, so I change my story okay now again that’s just an example for religion let’s try a different example right.

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Jason Mefford: let’s say you know, instead, I have a story that says, you know what unless unless I have the perfect body unless i’m just gorgeous.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, and and i’ve got the six pack and the muscles and i’m a real manly man unless i’m that the nobody’s gonna love me.

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Jason Mefford: Well there’s a lot of people that have that story right, and especially as as when we are younger.

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Jason Mefford: We believe that because that’s what we kind of get told right Oh, you know attractive people are the ones that have all the fun, I mean just go watch beer commercials for god’s sake right.

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Jason Mefford: You know, we get we get told and fed these stories all the time of of you know what our life will be like if we do certain things.

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Jason Mefford: And for some of us we go down those paths, we believe that for a while and then it no longer serves us right.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes people have issues with eating or with gambling or with drug abuse or alcohol abuse right and again for a while those stories might serve you but at some point you’re going to be at the end of your rope and you’re going to realize that that no longer is serving me so.

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Jason Mefford: That is the hint of the century Okay, because, again, the older that I get the more I realized, I mean even even this morning right, I was.

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Jason Mefford: Have a family member who’s in town and there were a whole bunch of stories going over in my head okay.

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Jason Mefford: About well do I need to go see this person Do I need to make the extra time for it blah blah blah blah blah, am I a bad you know person if I do or don’t do this thing.

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Jason Mefford: When, at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter right it doesn’t really matter, because a lot of it is just a dream anyway, and again there’s a lot.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of other songs I could go on sticks, the great illusion as another one, you know the hear that kind of talks about this because.

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Jason Mefford: The fact is most most of the things that we tell ourselves are not actually true anyway.

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Jason Mefford: You know the only fact that is really true right now is you’re listening to my voice, either on video or through a podcast right.

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Jason Mefford: you’re listening to my voice, right now, but a lot of the other things that go on in our head are just a dream just a dream Okay, so how much time, so again let’s let’s go back to the song a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Imagine how much pain and frustration this person put on themselves, trying to love someone who doesn’t love them anyway, trying to be someone.

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Jason Mefford: That they think the other person wants oh if i’m just this way, then this other person is going to love me then they’re going to finally accept me.

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Jason Mefford: That is one of the greatest stories that so many of us have that is completely ass backwards Okay, because what I will tell you is people will never love you, except for who you really are.

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Jason Mefford: Get here that people will only really love you for who you really are, and the sooner that we get past that that we realize, you know what.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes i’m in the corner sometimes i’m in the spotlight if i’m in the corner and I want to be in the spotlight i’m going to move myself there right.

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Jason Mefford: And i’m not going to go to any links right to try to impress you i’m not going to go to any links to try to get your approval either.

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Jason Mefford: Because, at the end of the day, I just have to be me right and and that’s again where you know if you can be happy and present.

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Jason Mefford: Now, exactly as you are, that is one of the keys to life okay I grew up I grew up listening to Mr Rogers and you know, the one thing that he always used to say, is, I, like you.

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Jason Mefford: exactly the way you are right, and that if we ourselves can actually start realizing that it can start living that more.

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Jason Mefford: How much happier, we will be, because ultimately it’s not the circumstances that we’re that we find ourselves in that determines whether we’re going to be happy or not.

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Jason Mefford: Okay does everybody who has cancer is everybody who has cancer are they unhappy no right some of the people that have cancer that are in the last few days of their life.

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Jason Mefford: Are some of the happiest people i’ve ever met right because they put things in perspective and they actually realize and enjoy life for what it is alright.

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Jason Mefford: So.

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Jason Mefford: I just had to get that off my chest So there you go losing my religion right and again, as I said, as you listen to this there was something that jumped out at you.

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Jason Mefford: Some way that this is going to help you today because, ultimately, my friends, what i’m telling you is there is hope there is love there is light in this world, and if you feel like you’re in the corner and you don’t want to be there just be yourself.

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Jason Mefford: Be yourself put yourself out there and what you will find is that people will be attracted to you, people will love you for for being exactly who you are.

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Jason Mefford: In fact that’s really the only way to be is to be the way that you are so here I am folks i’m showing up talking to you about something because it’s who I am right and and I hope that again this has come through as i’m talking to you today is my love for you.

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Jason Mefford: And for just wanting to give you hope and realize that you know a lot of times we find ourselves in situations that aren’t that fun.

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Jason Mefford: So we pull ourselves up by the bootstraps we move on and and we learn and we realize that we don’t have to compare ourselves to anyone else we can just show up and be who we are.

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Jason Mefford: So with that.

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Jason Mefford: Have a great rest of your week and i’ll catch on the next episode see ya.