In today’s episode we bring back Bruce Turner to discuss how to improve yourself in your career, and how to become the leader that you will need to be.

If you feel like your career may be feeling stagnant, or you continue to keep getting looked over for that coveted promotion, today’s podcast is a must listen!

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

Get a copy of Bruce’s latest book: “Rising from the Mailroom to the Boardroom
Unique Insights for Governance, Risk, Compliance and Audit Leaders” at:

https://www.routledge.com/Rising-from-the-Mailroom-to-the-Boardroom-Unique-Insights-for-Governance/Turner/p/book/9780367559991

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Alright well in today’s discussion, I have my friend Bruce Turner back with me and today we’re going to be talking about how you can rise up.

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Jason Mefford: From the mail room to the boardroom and I have to tell you Bruce is a great case study and example of this, because I know.

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Jason Mefford: You know the fact that you’re listening to this means you’re probably somebody who wants to improve yourself and your career.

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Jason Mefford: And so we’re going to show you exactly how that’s done and the type of LEADER that you need to be in order to move up like that so whatever you do make sure that you listen through and learn how you can rise up from the mail room to the boardroom so with that let’s bring in Bruce.

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Bruce Turner: Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Good I Bruce how you doing mate.

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Bruce Turner: It could be Thank you.

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Jason Mefford: I know it’s it’s it’s always good to have one of my odds ozzy friends on with me, because then I can actually use the word mate and everybody it doesn’t like look at me.

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Jason Mefford: I got really weird right but but yeah I know you know we’ve talked We talked a couple times before, and wanted to make sure, and have you back because you just finished up a new book.

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Jason Mefford: Right called rising from the mail room to the boardroom yeah unique insights for governance risk compliance and audit leaders.

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Jason Mefford: So, again that’s that’s been your your lane, if you will professionally kind of in that area, but you know again just for anybody who’s listening if you’re not in that area.

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Jason Mefford: don’t worry, because what we’re going to be talking about today are some of the concepts and kind of traits character traits you need to have.

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Jason Mefford: In order to be able to do that right, and I think you know Bruce we’ve talked before, but you you got people asking you all the time right hey Bruce.

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Jason Mefford: How do I do that, how do I, how do I move up how do I get promoted in the organization I, because I know you I think you’ve mentored quite a few people over your career to be able to help them get there right.

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Bruce Turner: yeah absolutely in the mentoring started through programs through the Institute of internal auditors and I still do some of those.

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Bruce Turner: And then it’s morphed into mentoring of chief executives and mentoring, a board chairs because.

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Bruce Turner: Once they might be specialists within the area of activity, you know professors or doctors or whatever they’re not familiar with some of the fundamentals of governance risk compliance assurance and so forth, so.

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Bruce Turner: I bring to the table some of those insights that I can share and help them, you know run their organization better through a chief executive or.

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Bruce Turner: run their board better if they’re a boogeyman and it’s worked really well and that sort of prompted me to think well.

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Bruce Turner: lots of people asking me for advice, so why don’t I try to capture some of those insights that i’ve gained over the years and do it through a storytelling type approach so it’s been a little fun to pull together.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah because I think you know we you like to use the stories and, obviously, having been in your career as long as you have I mean maybe like you know, in case, this is the first time somebody heard you talking here.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe just let’s let’s just give kind of a quick thumbnail of how your career kind of move because I mean literally from the title of the book you started off in the mailroom you did some very entry level.

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Jason Mefford: Jobs and ended up moving up into being, you know, a top executive and some of the largest organizations down there in Australia.

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Jason Mefford: To where now you’re actually you sit on boards, you have set on boards of directors, you know for for quite a while so you’re a great example of somebody who.

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Jason Mefford: With drive and dedication and we’re going to use some other words later, but intention.

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Jason Mefford: Right, have been able to move up in your career so just kind of give people just a very brief snapshot of like how your career kind of shot up and then we’ll we’ll jump in and help give them the Okay, so this is how you can be like Bruce.

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Bruce Turner: sounds good Jason so it’s this year that I started working 50 years ago.

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Bruce Turner: And I started in a junior banker position.

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Bruce Turner: And one of the things I used to do each day as a junior banker was go to the post office with a loaded pistol and.

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Bruce Turner: We used to cashing what they called money orders it didn’t go through the settlement system in those days, so I would be his teenage kid walking up the street with a loaded pistol to click a few hundred dollars worth of personal orders and.

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Bruce Turner: It didn’t make any sense to me the tonka so i’ve been given no training so.

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Jason Mefford: we’re just handed you a loaded gun and go cashless.

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Bruce Turner: yeah it was it was a little bit scary when you look at it in hindsight, and one of the things that we have these days, of course, is.

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Bruce Turner: A risk appetite but stipend at the board so that’s kind of connecting both ends of the spectrum.

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Bruce Turner: So from the junior banker position you know I spent a bunch of years, probably 30 odd years in the banking system in commercial banking merchant banking and in the Central Bank.

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Bruce Turner: And you know the early career, I was quite a successful young banker and the top banker in the state at one stage, but then I moved into the internal auditing profession and i’m glad I did because.

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Bruce Turner: it’s given me the opportunity to not just work within my local area here but i’ve worked throughout Australia, I worked in developing nations like a pepper New Guinea, I worked in financial cities like London or New York so it’s giving me that opportunity to experience the world.

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Bruce Turner: So from internal audit roles i’ve morphed into a chief ordered executive i’ve been responsible for risk management for compliance for.

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Bruce Turner: A range of other activities that that executive oversight level and from there, I moved into an audit committee chairman and, ultimately, a director on.

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Bruce Turner: Several boards and what we tried to do in the book is pulled together experiences at every different level.

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Bruce Turner: That i’ve gone through, because their insights is insights in terms of you know, carrying a loaded pistol and it kind of doesn’t make sense for young kid but certainly wouldn’t make sense in the boardroom.

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Jason Mefford: gonna be exciting, though, as a kid right, I mean it’s it’s like well because there was the old joke, you know when I when I was going through accounting.

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Jason Mefford: In college right and it was like okay folks there’s there’s a few pistol but we called pistol packing CPA a’s.

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Jason Mefford: And so, if you were in the US, you know if you work for the Department of treasury you get to carry a gun.

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Jason Mefford: If you work for the FBI you get to wear carry a gun right but but normally you wouldn’t think of that from from banking but.

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Jason Mefford: I want to bring up because, again, you know, as I told everybody, you know who’s listening or watching this right is.

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Jason Mefford: Is you know you’re going to learn things as we’re talking that are relevant, regardless of what profession, you happen to be in.

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Jason Mefford: And so what I heard you saying there to was you know you started off as a banker, and then you really kind of switch profession, if you will.

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Jason Mefford: And I know a lot of people are really scared to do that because they think no, you know I come out of college i’ve got certain skill set, I have to do this for the next 40 or 50 years of my life.

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Jason Mefford: But your evidence that you don’t have to do that right, I mean you move from being a banker to going into internal audit to risk management to some other things, and ultimately to a board members so.

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Jason Mefford: So if i’m hearing you right it’s okay to change career trajectory even partway through right, you can still going to be okay.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely, and it was pretty scary for me when I moved from commercial banking into the Central Bank, because i’d worked with the same organization for 18 years at that point in time.

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Bruce Turner: And I had a young family and there’s a hell of a risk you take, where you think you’re taking this risk you don’t know whether you’ve got the capability to do that other job and commercial banking is very, very different to central banking.

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Jason Mefford: Oh yeah.

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Bruce Turner: So even that sort of decision in the same sector was it was quite scary but I got in there and I thought Well, this is pretty good, and then they went through a.

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Bruce Turner: Structural change and every senior manager at the time, including myself, and anybody know six months and had to reapply for the jobs.

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Jason Mefford: In here you have a young family and kids.

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Jason Mefford: Literally tell you probably move to if you were a Central Bank did you have to move to camera to are you, you have to stay.

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Bruce Turner: in Sydney.

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Jason Mefford: You can still certainly okay.

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Bruce Turner: yeah which is probably you know it was probably three hours a day commuting for me there and back, but that gave me time to read things that I needed to do for work and so forth.

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Bruce Turner: That you know that was especially worrying because we were competing in the jobs were opened up to the world, you know any particular capability could apply for it.

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Bruce Turner: um you know, took a few months and and then things settle down, I was reappointed but even that.

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Bruce Turner: is especially worrying because you don’t know what you you’re going to get into and then later on, as you get a bit older a bit wiser bit more experienced.

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Bruce Turner: Changing roles is less difficult because you know what you’ve got and you’ve got the confidence to go in and make the changes, you made to make.

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Bruce Turner: And so my final job was as the chief ordered executive at the Australian tax office and I was recruited into the role and a lot of the people were based out in camera, which is three hours drive from my home.

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Bruce Turner: And you know met the deputy, Commissioner, on the first day and a bunch of other executives and then went out to make my team in.

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Bruce Turner: In one of the outer suburbs of Cambridge and what actually come prepared, I came prepared with my first hundred days plan, I came prepared with a PowerPoint presentation.

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Bruce Turner: The Deputy Commissioner nearly fell off his Jerry he was so stoked they’re prepared, I was, but I gave a message to the staff, then and I could see the doubts.

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Bruce Turner: we’ve heard all this before you know, is this going to happen or not, and of course I then chose out the biggest doubters and gradually brought them behind me, and it was through their efforts.

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Bruce Turner: That were able to make the changes that we needed to make that was really exciting so when you can you can change careers, and I think it’s really important to evolve.

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Bruce Turner: it’s nice having a 30 year career and doing the same thing, year on year you’ve got to branch out you’ve got to have a sense of accomplishment and if you’re doing the same thing with Tom you often don’t get that.

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Jason Mefford: I like what you said there too, you know, because with with age right we’ve all got a little loose you may have a little bit more Gray Gray or white hair used to have.

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Jason Mefford: But but it’s you know it’s over time you use the word confidence to because I think again, a lot of people struggle with confidence and they want to be more confident.

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Jason Mefford: But how do you get more confidence it’s by going through some of the experiences right because, like you said, the first time that you.

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Jason Mefford: change jobs, you change roles you change companies right it’s it’s scary because we’ve never done it before, but the more we do it, the easier it becomes I think right.

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Bruce Turner: It does absolutely.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think you know so again it’s the you know don’t don’t worry about don’t think that you have to have everything figured out.

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Jason Mefford: Because again i’m guessing that you know when when you started off you had no idea that 50 years later, in your career, you would be where you are at.

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Bruce Turner: All not at all.

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Jason Mefford: Not at all right.

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Bruce Turner: And that’s The interesting thing you actually don’t know what the journey is but along the journey pick me up for skills and those fresh skills.

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Bruce Turner: make you marketable in the eyes of others and that’s something that we need to.

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Bruce Turner: That that sort of interest that enthusiasm to learn and continue our professional development is something that I want to encourage people to do because you just don’t know where it’s going to take you.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and that’s that’s one of that’s one of the big topics that I am big about is that enthusiasm to learn.

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Jason Mefford: right because again it’s we never know where we’re going to get you can life does take these twists and turns.

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Jason Mefford: And sometimes maybe it feels like I don’t really understand why this is happening to me but later on, we learn why right at the time we don’t necessarily have the benefit of hindsight, because you don’t have hindsight until till you turn around and went backwards right.

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Bruce Turner: Yes, you don’t and when I was first approached to take on a role of the merchant bank on the content from from from my bank commercial bank.

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Bruce Turner: who had a 50% stake with the merchant bank and I was there to hit up the internal audit function and establish its its inaugural internal audit function, and I still pretty young.

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Bruce Turner: But also successful banker, you know every training course I went to within the Bank, I was topping so I should have had more confidence than probably what I did, and when I was first asked to do it, I said no, I won’t.

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Bruce Turner: And this was one of those things where you go there for 12 months and you come back to you, your core role, so the risk was pretty limited but still having that confidence to do it.

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Bruce Turner: was something that I learned over the years and, of course, you go in there and you’re learning a whole new thing because the other stakeholder in the organization was a German bank.

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Bruce Turner: And they do things very differently in Germany and Australia and US and UK so learning fresh things, then, and you kind of think afterwards well.

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Bruce Turner: There wasn’t too bad I can actually do that I can hold my own, where there’s other people who are really high profile and still do a good job and have have the confidence of management to succeed.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well and that’s The thing is that you know I think sometimes people they get the cart before the horse, they want the confidence before they do anything.

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Jason Mefford: But confidence comes from doing the things.

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Bruce Turner: that’s it.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so until you actually you know get in there and do it you’re not going to have the confidence.

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Jason Mefford: Because that that comes from the doing, but I wanted to kind of go back to to what you were saying you know when you when you went into the.

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Jason Mefford: I think it was to the taxi to the tax authority mean you made a comment you know about some of the people kind of be on the naysayers and you kind of be able to pick them out, because I know, one of the things that we wanted to make sure and talk about, and this is what.

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Jason Mefford: It, at least where I see a lot of people in their failings is their lack of the people side of the role right, and so, especially.

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Jason Mefford: In the profession that you and I have have come up in you know a lot of it is around the technical things that we need to have and so so leaders tend to get promoted because they’re technically competent.

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Jason Mefford: But, but what I see is that there there tends to become a point when people are kind of.

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Jason Mefford: How do I say this over promoted maybe in so you’ve probably seen it working with executives i’ve seen it working with executives as well to where.

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Jason Mefford: Somebody gets to a point, and they all of a sudden, they realize they kind of you know stick their head up and they’re like holy shit I don’t know how to how to lead people I never got really taught.

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Jason Mefford: Some of these things so So what are some of these you know the the people side of the stuff that really for us to be able to move forward in our career to grow.

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Jason Mefford: To have some of these other opportunities, what are some of these people side of things that we need that we need to be focusing on and actually kind of developers skills.

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Bruce Turner: that’s a really good question you hear a lot of business leaders talk about people being the most important asset, and I think that’s really true.

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Bruce Turner: And so we didn’t the book, we talk about the hundred and one building blocks so each of those is a unique assets that are necessary for people.

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Bruce Turner: So one of the things that we delve into is the onboarding of younger people, we need to do it thoughtfully and it’s important to maintain a fun business environment.

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Bruce Turner: it’s important for us to be able to identify talent it’s important for us to be able to leverage emotional intelligence.

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Bruce Turner: To invest in personal, professional growth and to understand a personal brand, we need to do that for ourselves, but encouraging people to do that as well.

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Bruce Turner: We also need to inspire people by recognizing good performance and we also need to take the hard decisions of time and deal with poor performance so each of those.

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Bruce Turner: There fits into a separate building block and we’d actually delve into it, I actually tell stories about some of my personal experiences.

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Bruce Turner: And it’s not all easy going, you know we make mistakes along the way, but we learned from those mistakes so each of those building blocks is introduced her personal story.

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Bruce Turner: And then we talk about what it means for the readers, this is what you should be considering doing, and this is what will mean for you and for your career and your success and the success of your people.

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Bruce Turner: And that’s the that’s part of the fun of it, you know you you’re hearing these stories and you can have a bit of a giggle at times of some of the.

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Bruce Turner: events that have taken place in my life, but it actually informed by learning and informed, what I can share with others through mentoring and through storytelling in books like this.

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Jason Mefford: Book because i’m.

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Jason Mefford: guessing that.

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Jason Mefford: Over a 50 year career, you probably made some mistakes.

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Bruce Turner: Oh yes.

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Jason Mefford: So so here’s another learning for everybody who’s listening right is that, again, I see so many people that they’re afraid to do anything because they’re afraid to make a mistake right but, but you were talking about you know kind of being this curious learner.

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Jason Mefford: You know and and actually learning along the way, I mean we don’t really learn until we actually try something and we get some kind of feedback, I think, as well right.

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Jason Mefford: So so maybe let’s you know a lot of those things that you just kind of threw out there around you know.

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Jason Mefford: emotional intelligence about things like recognizing the work of others, I mean that’s that’s a huge thing that so many leaders don’t.

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Jason Mefford: Do for their people another one is around having fun right so so so so maybe let’s let’s talk a little bit about about those three because, again, I know, those are some things people are talking about, but what is, what does it really mean and how can we actually do that.

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Bruce Turner: let’s let’s start with having fun, I mean we get to work, and we spend so much time at work, each and every day.

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Bruce Turner: and

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Bruce Turner: You know, we share our lives with people at work and probably see some of the more often we see our own families and I certainly did that, when I was traveling a lot in internal altering as you do, and you made a lot of new people.

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Bruce Turner: But one of the things.

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Bruce Turner: that’s really important there is to underpin that with a sense of fun, you know, have a bit of joy shares and choice as well, so one of my most important roles as a chief audit executive at the Australian tax office.

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Bruce Turner: was getting out and judging competitions, they had within the penrith site which is my home site knows the St most senior executive there.

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Bruce Turner: And we had 1400 people and some of those were very operational roles like call centers some of those were around compliance you’re dealing with people who weren’t prepared to pay their fair share attacks and everyone.

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Jason Mefford: that’s a nice way of saying.

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Bruce Turner: it’s a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Tax cheaters I mean I mean.

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Bruce Turner: yeah well yeah.

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Bruce Turner: One of the things I used to do was some judge competitions and whether it’s the Easter parade or something like that or whether it’s Christmas decorations around the side.

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Bruce Turner: i’d get around, and I would be doing this sort of judging had really no idea, you know about what was better.

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Bruce Turner: In terms of this location and all the Christmas decorations or this one over here, but I participated in that willingly and it took away, you know.

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Bruce Turner: Sometimes several hours of time, but I got around the side people got to know me not just as Bruce the executive, but he’s Bruce the human being and Bruce who is in heaven rugby league football support.

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Bruce Turner: Your local team and.

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Bruce Turner: We still have the beta now you know I when I retired they put on a wonderful retirement function for me at the pen with office I had one camera as well, but they invited along to that the penrith P paint that, who was the.

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Bruce Turner: Individual dressed up in a in a paint the suit and he repeated every penrith game, so he was one of the video ips with the Commissioner of taxation.

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Bruce Turner: But that’s how it can translate it can translate by having a sense of fun to making people aware of your identity your personality and therefore their willingness to come behind you, so I think there’s only a good example of that.

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Bruce Turner: And it made it unique that he is Bruce at his retirement function having the pink panther mascot.

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Bruce Turner: which I think is pretty amazing and, of course, the media picked up on that, and there were stories in the local newspapers about the tax man retiring and he is painting with paint paint that you know.

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Bruce Turner: combines a few of those but what people seeing the real you and understand your values and understand your vision and they’ll often come behind you and I also saw the example.

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Bruce Turner: Of on harmony day.

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Bruce Turner: Which is bringing people together and the color orange is synonymous with harmony day so on one occasion there I wore an orange suit and orange tie and orange shirt and covering orange to a.

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Bruce Turner: A function in the pair of socks have several hundred people there and later that day I was talking to the CIO of the audit committee, who was 300 kilometers away in camera, and they said tell me what’s this about this orange suit.

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Jason Mefford: So the news that made it always.

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Bruce Turner: Does and and again that just adds to.

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Bruce Turner: You know what people know about you and and hear about you and but it builds that that personal brand which I think is really important.

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Jason Mefford: But I think I love what you said there let let people see the real you because I think again, this is, this is one of those things that i’ve seen it has it has so many negative effects right is that if.

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Jason Mefford: If we’re not who we really are if we don’t show up and act authentically that’s the word that some people are using now to.

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Jason Mefford: Then you know we We feel this psychological disconnect inside, which can lead to depression, it can lead to a whole bunch of different things right.

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Jason Mefford: But what I hear you saying, too, is that we’re actually a better leader and people will follow behind us.

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Jason Mefford: And we establish a better brand for ourself which again that brand is what’s helping to catapult people in their career, so the fact that you’re you know you’re a rugby you know follower.

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Jason Mefford: is a good thing right it’s not something that you need to hide and be ashamed of right that when you show up in all orange you know to kind of go along with unity day it’s cool right it’s okay.

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Jason Mefford: It gets people to talk it gets people to see.

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Jason Mefford: Who Bruce is as a human being, you know, instead of somebody who’s just cold and and flat right.

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Bruce Turner: very true, so let me just pick up the so.

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Bruce Turner: I was based in the penrith site, which is an hour out of Sydney there’s another side power matter which is half an hour out of Sydney.

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Bruce Turner: And the second most senior person in the text office medical Jenny granger.

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Bruce Turner: was based on camera but Jenny came from Sydney and she was a cane follower of the south Sydney team so Jenny and I are senior executives went to the parent matters site.

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Bruce Turner: And we were delivering a talk about the vision for the organization and its priority.

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Bruce Turner: strategies and how that connected with people so hundreds of people came to this and I actually provided Jenny with a gift.

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Bruce Turner: And the gift was a scarf and the first part that she sees is the colors of South Sydney which is red and green and if she opens it up She then sees the color of parramatta, which is the blue and gold and, as she opens that are further she sees the colors of my team penrith and the.

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Bruce Turner: crowd just went nuts and what’s interesting here is that when I visited Jenny and her office in Canberra a few weeks later, she actually had the scarf draped over her lounge chair in her office.

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Bruce Turner: And then later when she left the tax office and went overseas to London day to hit up a revenue area over there.

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Bruce Turner: She actually had that scarf on the Chair over there, so something like that resonates with the crowd at the time they get a sense of enjoyment out of it, but for me it provided Jenny with a constant reminder of the penrith site which always cheaply.

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Bruce Turner: So a number of different benefits come from those sorts of.

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Bruce Turner: Things were you thinking outside the box, a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it does, and I think it’s it adds that that real human connection.

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Jason Mefford: To it right because, because with that she she was able to see your sense of your mug to love it.

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Jason Mefford: or anyone anyway penrith is on the money to.

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Jason Mefford: spend.

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Bruce Turner: Right now finding the grand final this coming weekend.

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Jason Mefford: Oh alright well there we go shout out shout out there, we go shout out but but, but I think it’s you know not not only you know, does it does it show like you said you were kind of barracking for.

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Jason Mefford: For that local Office, if you will, right but, but it also.

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Jason Mefford: shows your sense of humor.

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Jason Mefford: It shows a bond and a camaraderie right because, again, even though, even though she had a different team right you both have rugby in common right.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely and it’s finding those common denominators and with other people that might be something totally different that you focus on, and you make sure you make the connection through that.

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Jason Mefford: yeah and I think that’s important again for everybody who’s listening everyone in the world, you can find something in common with everyone in the world, the problem is so much of the time we look for how we’re different.

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Jason Mefford: Right, instead of how we’re the same, and so I mean again Bruce you and I can do this right oh Bruce you were born in Australia, I was born in America.

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Jason Mefford: I mean we can go through, like all these stupid things and we can come up with this whole long list of ways that were different.

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Jason Mefford: But I bet we can come up with just as long of a list of the ways that we’re the same right and so again i’m sure that.

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Jason Mefford: In your career, one of the things that that made you successful was looking for those for that common ground right again in being able to develop the relationships, I know, one of the one of the.

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Jason Mefford: One of the hundred and one things building blocks that you have on here to was stay mates for life.

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Jason Mefford: right which which, again, I think you know, in that, in that example with was a Jenny you know of the of the scarf right there was a connection that the two of you had throughout your whole career because of some of that common ground and some of the common experiences that you had together.

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Bruce Turner: Absolutely end part of the story that staying mates for life now there’s people that i’ve worked with 3040 years ago seems like a long time, when we talk about it now.

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Jason Mefford: I know some of the people listening or anything that all.

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Bruce Turner: That, even if you don’t see yourselves, for a long, long time when you come back together again it’s as though nothing’s changed people look older and people might be a little more frail, but this time sense of.

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Bruce Turner: The personality is there the sense of humor hasn’t changed the the idiosyncrasies that exactly the same, and I found that out we’ve had some reunions over recent years.

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Bruce Turner: Through people i’ve worked with over the years, and these people are exactly the same, the people you are drawn to back then you’re drawn to now.

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Bruce Turner: it’s really funny how the human psyche works, but that’s the way it is and a couple of years ago, a few years ago now, I got an honor and my family arranged a surprise party and they brought to you know hundred people together in a hole, and.

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Bruce Turner: People were there from every stage of my career from every organization, we work with and even through to Michael descends a Commissioner of taxation.

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Bruce Turner: And one of the most senior executives in the public sector in Australia and he made the trek from Cambridge to be there, and you kind of think well okay i’ve had a bit of an impact and.

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Bruce Turner: I kind of like that, and the funny thing is, I had no inkling, this is a surprise party and being an order for so long, you think you’ve developed some skills, but my family were very secretive and I had no inkling.

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Bruce Turner: That I was getting a surprise party.

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Jason Mefford: Well, but, but I think it’s a testament to right to to to what you’ve done in your career and what you’re sharing in this book with people.

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Jason Mefford: Is you know I i’ve worked with a lot of executives over my lifetime and I don’t know how many times, you know there’ll be somebody and i’m.

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Jason Mefford: just going to use the name Larry because maybe this was or maybe it wasn’t his name but anyway right where where people would refer to somebody who had retired.

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Jason Mefford: And you know they were talking about Larry and Larry was a real asshole right and and nobody liked him, and you know, he was effective at what he did, but he was he was a very difficult man to work with and people were glad to see him go and finally retire right.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t think people would have shown up.

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Jason Mefford: For larry’s party like they did for years right because.

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Jason Mefford: Because, as a leader right it says staying mates for life it’s it’s actually seeing people as other human beings treating people that way it comes back right and it’s it’s that people side of life in general, and especially when you’re in the business world that people sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: Forget because they think it’s more.

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Bruce Turner: Important to.

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Jason Mefford: accomplish the projects or accomplish the task than to have a relationship with another human being.

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Bruce Turner: Yes, very true.

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Jason Mefford: so well, I know I wanted I freaky keep talking all day, but I know I wanted, I wanted to bring up because one of the things that you brought up in here was this, for I framework right, so I wanted to talk a little bit about that, because some of these words that you use on here.

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Jason Mefford: Are words that when when I was reading through this preparing i’m like Bruce you use two of my favorite words man, so I wanted to go there and talk about this because.

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Jason Mefford: You know so maybe we can talk about kind of what it is what the words are and kind of what they mean because, like I said there’s some of these words that people aren’t really familiar with.

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Jason Mefford: So you know in this, I guess, I guess, this, for I framework, I mean how How would we use this kind of in in our career and thinking about this.

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Jason Mefford: How does, how does it come through.

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Bruce Turner: Well, I guess, before I framework in this this forwards they’re made to begin with the letter is so intuition ideas intent and impact.

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Bruce Turner: And I guess the hundred one building blocks that I talked about all fit within the boundaries of those four elements.

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Bruce Turner: So if we think of it, you know when we first joined or third of the workforce, we actually don’t know what we did what we don’t know.

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Bruce Turner: And there’s so much to learn and therefore our intuition comes to the fore, because it actually differentiates people with high potential.

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Bruce Turner: From those people who might just be an average performance there’s nothing wrong with that you know, to get high above average, you need people who are an average level of people below average and you need to invest.

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Bruce Turner: In the development of each of those are two different degree, but the high potential people, those that have a natural intuition they’re the ones that you can actually see.

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Bruce Turner: Where they might be in five years 10 years time, and therefore you need to develop their capability differently to the run of the mill kind of people and that mean that disrespectfully.

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Bruce Turner: And then, as you move through different stages of your career, you start indignant glean ideas and you’re starting to see that Larry.

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Bruce Turner: has some good attributes as well that we can learn from.

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Bruce Turner: As well as other people within our own business area, as well as people in other business areas as well, so we’re getting all of these new ideas and we’re developing fresh ideas ourselves.

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Bruce Turner: And then we start reaching levels of being a supervisor or manager or an executive and once we get there.

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Bruce Turner: we’ve got to operate with intent people have got to understand what our intent is and what our our our values and what is our vision and what is it we’re going to get there to achieve that collective intense and that’s very much.

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Bruce Turner: Ensuring that we achieve the objectives and goals of the organization and then some people reach your highest pinnacle again, which is at the board level.

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Bruce Turner: Where they’re sitting around you know very influential role which can have a profound impact not just on their own entity but on a broader communities so.

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Bruce Turner: Each of those letters I have a different role to play in terms of how you craft your career and how you evolve it along the way, and it’s just important to have that in the back of your mind that.

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Bruce Turner: You go from you know very basic level of just having intuition to developing ideas to.

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Bruce Turner: Having intense and ensuring people follow you and then having a broader impact, and I know there’s things I can do at a board level, it can have an impact on not just my local area but.

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Bruce Turner: In terms of my State in terms of my country and broadly or globally, because I speak to people all over the world and and that’s where we can leverage our individual talents and their reputation that we thought.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s I think it’s interesting like you said you know as you’re progressing through your career, you know you kind of start moving into some of these other eyes, but but as well to where it’s like in the end, this is where I see some people kind of trip up is is they kind of forget.

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Jason Mefford: about some of the younger ones about some of the other ones and it’s not necessarily about maturing through and only doing one but being able to balance all of these as well right.

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Jason Mefford: And to me, I mean two of my favorite words are intuition and intense, because I, because I think especially today we’ve gotten to where.

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Jason Mefford: we’re so reliant on just the what I call the science side of things that we forget the art side of things, or we forget the intuition side of things, and I was actually I was.

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Jason Mefford: In.

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Jason Mefford: You had to be there for the speech, but I just gave a speech, where I used to caveman example of you know.

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Jason Mefford: Trying to look at the science behind the the probability of a saber tooth tiger coming out, you know we’re hungry, we got to go get food oh it’s only a 7.4% chance right.

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Jason Mefford: And so you go up to the door and you’re getting ready to go and you’re like oh I don’t have a very good feeling about this oh don’t worry right and we pushed for sucker out the door.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because their intuition right was coming in and telling them no I don’t know that that’s really what I need to do, and so many times I think people kind of push that off and think.

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Jason Mefford: You know I can’t do that and that’s where some of this emotional intelligence, some of these other words come into it, that.

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Jason Mefford: No, I mean like you said, the people who are more intuitive especially earlier on in their career.

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Jason Mefford: Those are the people that usually make it further right because they know how to trust their gut they know how to make the quicker decisions and trust themselves, and then the same thing with intent, you know is it’s like you know I can do, I can do something.

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Jason Mefford: But my intent behind doing the thing is more important than the thing.

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Jason Mefford: As well right.

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Bruce Turner: it’s true and you’ve got to be genuine with your intent, so if you reach those very high levels within your organization.

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Bruce Turner: People have to have confidence in what you’re saying and, therefore, if you’re preaching any intent that is at odds with how you act yourself people aren’t going to follow you you’ve got to be very genuine with your intent.

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Jason Mefford: yeah because then that’s you know that goes back to some of the integrity and and other things like that, too, but.

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Jason Mefford: But as a leader it’s also where you’re able to get some benefit of the doubt, I think, to right because again we’re we’re all human we’re fallible we make mistakes.

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Jason Mefford: And, and I remember you know at different points in in my career in my life, both at work and personally right where maybe somebody did something to me that I was like oh that was kind of a.

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Jason Mefford: That wasn’t cool right, and I would have been like livid angry going off on somebody but I had history with that person, and so you know, even though something happened to me the thought that goes through my mind is.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t think that’s what Bob intended because bob’s not that kind of person right, and so, even though he did this thing that maybe was hurtful or whatever else i’ve got to assume that bob’s intent was not to hurt me.

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Jason Mefford: Yet right.

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Jason Mefford: And and that’s where I think you know to kind of tie back in on some of the people, things that we’ve been talking about when people know you and they know your heart.

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Jason Mefford: They know who you are they know the place of intention that you come from as well right but that that gets built up over time that’s part of these people skills, you know that you’re talking about in the book.

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Bruce Turner: It is, and one of the things that I put a lot of effort into within the book is to recognize that the stories i’m sharing.

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Bruce Turner: In the insights that i’m sharing and Chester a.

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Bruce Turner: They come from other people so actually close the book with a little section, where I talk about 24 people called legends legends who inspired me.

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Bruce Turner: And within that i’ve got a dozen people who said above me in you know board chair roles or executive roles or Chief Executive roles, or whatever, and then a dozen people who were peers or.

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Bruce Turner: at a level level, to me, and I also managed to get the balance right, in terms of gender so.

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Bruce Turner: It was really important for me to to actually draw that out, but just to recognize these people, but to press the point very clearly that success doesn’t come from.

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Bruce Turner: Your and if it’s individually, they come from what you do with other people and therefore let’s not forget that they’re important part of that journey.

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Jason Mefford: But they are, they are a very important part of the journey and it’s it as you were as you were talking about that there were.

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Jason Mefford: A few faces in my career that kind of jumped out right like I remember you know what one person I was, I was young, I had two little kids I was still in college working for a big company in the accounting department and.

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Jason Mefford: And there was an accounting role that came open and accountant one position right so entry level account, and I was a still an intern.

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Jason Mefford: In college and I remember you know, having to struggle of here I am you know earning like six or $7 an hour i’ve got you know, two little kids and a wife and.

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Jason Mefford: gosh you know that it seemed like so much money for that entry level job right.

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Jason Mefford: And so I put in an application, because I mean I was qualified yeah I was, I was a few months away from getting my degree, but I really was already pretty much doing the job I knew the job.

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Jason Mefford: And, and so you know talk to my wife about it, we put in put in my application for it and, and I remember that the guy who was who was our controller.

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Jason Mefford: You know I mean normally he wouldn’t talk to an accounting intern I mean he knew who I was, and he was nice to me and everything but I remember he called me into into his office you know which was kind of a big deal right.

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Jason Mefford: I mean, because here’s it here’s this guy that’s.

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Jason Mefford: You know, probably 40 years older than me right and and he says, you know Jason I just have to tell you that we’re going to.

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Jason Mefford: we’re going to take out your application we’re not we’re not going to put it through or have you go through the interview process and i’m like why and he’s like I see the potential that you have.

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Jason Mefford: And this is not the job for you you’re going to graduate you’re going to go to work in public accounting, you need to have a totally different career i’m not gonna let you shoot yourself in the foot by getting this job now.

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Bruce Turner: yeah yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Right and and, at the time, you know, maybe a little disappointed again because, like you said right, it was a lot of money, different right, but he was so right, and I am so grateful for him.

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Jason Mefford: You know, he did a few other things for me over my career, too, but but for having people like that.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and I think that that’s one of the things that we forget sometimes is that we are all connected in some way or another to right and.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s it’s about giving back it’s about paying it forward it’s about you know, treating everybody with respect.

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Jason Mefford: And you know so when you do have your retirement party, a couple hundred people are going to show up.

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Jason Mefford: And, and you know, like did for years right, I mean you’ve had an amazing career over the last 50 years where people wouldn’t show up because you’re a good human being that’s why I like it man.

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Jason Mefford: You know.

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Bruce Turner: Very humbled.

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Jason Mefford: Well, but it’s but it’s it’s just truth to the to the fact that.

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Jason Mefford: You know I think sometimes people feel like you got to be an asshole to get ahead in this life, but you don’t have to be that way.

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Bruce Turner: they’re not at all and, and I think you’ve got to invest in the development of the next generations that are coming through and.

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Bruce Turner: I know that I took a particularly interesting graduate recruitment and you know I used to at different times, we would have you know 3456 people.

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Bruce Turner: As graduates coming into our internal audit teams and i’m at a special case that whenever I visited that particular site where where it was down in Melbourne or kaberle within Cindy.

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Bruce Turner: I would actually have meetings with the graduates, some of them would be one on one, some of them would be you know the group of three or four graduates of that particular side.

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Bruce Turner: And some of them would remark that they never actually seen in managers manager little and the senior executive.

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Bruce Turner: And I thought that was really sad and and what we used to do sometimes we would have a conversation around what they were still studying is that part of the graduate.

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Bruce Turner: internship and others that would come and they wouldn’t really have a topic that I wanted to talk about which suited me because, then I could.

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Bruce Turner: Talk about something and I thought was important for them and get their interest in that, so I actually thought it was really worthwhile and.

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Bruce Turner: You know that resulted in a whole bunch of them staying within the internal audit profession.

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Bruce Turner: It also meant that they would go out and talk to the other graduates within the organization, who then one of the heaviest 19 internal audit.

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Bruce Turner: Even though coming from HR background or marketing background or whatever they saw the value of coming and working with internal order for 345 or six months rotation.

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Bruce Turner: and learning some skills around governance risk and compliance and and assurance and for me that was really important because that also meant that down the track internal auditors had ambassadors.

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Bruce Turner: In management or executive positions, and I think it’s it’s a it’s a circle, the joints you’ve got to make sure that people coming through.

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Bruce Turner: into graduate roles or a junior roles understand what the the gig is about, and you know when they do that they can sort of find a bit of that passion that we might have as well.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well it’s you know it’s it’s that good reminder again of you know.

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Jason Mefford: Always treating other people, the way we’d want to be treated as well you know, like you said, I mean it was such a surprise for those for those newer entry level folks to say well.

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Jason Mefford: I don’t even get to talk to my supervisors manager and here you are like the big boss coming and talking to me just like i’m another human being right.

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Jason Mefford: And I think sometimes you know again it’s the further up a lot of people get an organization, they forget or they lose touch with that human connection of the people that are there, and by that so important, you know from a from a leadership perspective so.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so I guess you know, again, I can keep we can keep talking all day.

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Jason Mefford: But you know I guess many final final kind of comments or things that you want to make sure, and leave with people I mean again.

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Jason Mefford: You know, obviously, everybody go out get get rising from the mail room to the boardroom bruce’s book new book and we’ll make sure, and put put a link to that so you can find that as well, but you know fight final thoughts for for people as well.

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Jason Mefford: On on how they can be successful in their career.

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Bruce Turner: I think it’s as simple as do your best in whatever you do make sure you find the passion and actually having fun with what you’re doing.

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Bruce Turner: And, and your career isn’t going to just be all awkward this is going to be times, where things don’t go quite right, so be prepared for the.

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Bruce Turner: Both upward and downward spirals you might have within a career and you know just do your best, and if you do your best and you continue to learn.

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Bruce Turner: And if you act as a sponge you know, taking the insights you get from people that you have a high regard for.

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Bruce Turner: Taking what you came when you go to training courses, taking the opportunities, you have for professional development, and we really genuinely what you do you create will just find you know, a rhythm that you’re happy with yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and I think it’s you know it’s that that.

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Jason Mefford: As you kind of you know, brought home again that enthusiasm to learn that we kind of talked about before, and the fact that yeah it’s not it’s not always going to just be.

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Jason Mefford: Great I mean sometimes there’s going to be lateral move sometimes there’s going to be some setbacks, you know i’ve seen that before where people, maybe got.

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Jason Mefford: got promoted to early they weren’t ready they weren’t able to kind of perform at that particular area had to take a step back.

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Jason Mefford: Later on, then they’re able to kind of come forward right, and you know that, having fun and realizing it’s just a job right.

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Jason Mefford: At the end of the day and and sometimes I think we take ourselves too serious and we just need to have fun.

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Jason Mefford: As we’re going along and the more like you said genuine that we can be the more authentic we are of who we are and doing our best in whatever that looks like it’s going to serve you well in your career.

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Bruce Turner: you’ve official.

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Jason Mefford: It well, I mean because because again at the end of the day.

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Jason Mefford: You know, know when when we’re on our deathbed not that we’re ever going to get there, but you know i’ve heard a bunch of those you know.

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Jason Mefford: Surveys and data that’s been collected on that right and and and when people are reflecting back on life it’s usually not gee I wish I would have worked more.

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Jason Mefford: it’s usually she I wish i’d been a kinder person I wish I had more fun I wish I, you know that kind of stuff.

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Jason Mefford: In the ironic thing in your career is is truth to this too right, the more fun, you have the more genuine you are, the more you connect with people it’s actually really good for your career to.

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Bruce Turner: me and one of the significant learnings I had one data management development course 20 or 30 years ago was let’s sit down now and write our own eulogy.

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Bruce Turner: If we want a eulogy now.

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Bruce Turner: We can actually reflect on that as we move through, and it can actually influence and how we behave and what we focus on which comes back to what you were saying you know, make sure that we add genuine in what we do and that we do care for other people.

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Jason Mefford: yeah yeah because ultimately that’s the.

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Jason Mefford: that’s, the key to it in fact it.

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Jason Mefford: It reminds me of the.

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Jason Mefford: Harvard Harvard has done a study for like the last 70 or 80 years they took that took a graduating class and.

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Jason Mefford: they’d like followed up with these people for 75 or 80 years and the one the one correlation that they had for a long healthy and happy life.

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Jason Mefford: Was the quality of the relationships of the people yeah and so you know that’s true in our personal life it’s true in our business life as well.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of times we forget about and we don’t spend as much time developing and maintaining those relationships, but it’s a human side that you’re talking about, and when we do that.

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Jason Mefford: Not only is a good for our career.

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Jason Mefford: She makes us happy to.

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Jason Mefford: which go figure who’d want to be happy right.

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Bruce Turner: And so lately.

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Jason Mefford: Absolutely well Bruce, as always, is a pleasure to talk to you man, thank you.

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Jason Mefford: appreciate you actually putting you know everything that you have into this book i’ve read through some of the some of the pre stuff and it’s it’s fabulous so go out and get it as well, so.

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Bruce Turner: Thanks very much Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you.

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Bruce Turner: Nice to talk to you man you’re.

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Jason Mefford: talking to you.

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Okay.

In today’s podcast we have Guido Van Drunen back on the show to discuss with us how what we are measuring may not be what we SHOULD be measuring.

While measuring certain data points, it can be easy to create certain situations where we bring about unintended consequences.

Despite the fact that some of these consequences may not be nefarious in nature, it can lead to quite destructive behavior.

One common example would be that if a company tracks safety metrics, it may lead to employees no longer reporting on the job accidents in order to continue receiving certain incentives.

So listen in to today’s episode and see how policy can be changed for the better… as with all episode there is a business and personal applicability of what we are discussing.

Check out Guido’s article “Benchmarking Drives Behavior” at: https://guidonvandrunen.substack.com/p/benchmark-drives-behavior

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jason hey today I have my friend Guido van drone and back with me and we are going to talk about.

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Jason Mefford: How we need to be careful what we measure and so again we’re going to talk a little bit about how this shows up in business, but also in how it shows up in life.

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Jason Mefford: Because I don’t know if you’re like most people, but often you find out that what you’re measuring may not actually be what it is that you need to measure.

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Jason Mefford: So with that whatever you do, listen to the whole episode and make sure, and let your friends know about the jamming with Jason podcast and here we go let’s roll that episode.

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Jason Mefford: All right, gado it’s great to have you back man, I know, last time we had a lot of fun, there was a lot of laughing which is going to be this time too.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah Well, first of all thanks for having me back Jason I really appreciate it, I think it’s I think it’s a lot of fun to do these with you and you’re you know you’re a master of your trade or your craft and.

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Guido van Drunen: I certainly appreciate the opportunity to spout off a little bit on some of the things that i’ve seen in my career.

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Guido van Drunen: And you know, one of the things, as you know, as i’m starting to write a little bit about something that I call benchmark driving behavior.

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Guido van Drunen: And, and this, this is something that’s come up over the years, where i’ve observed various things, both in the investment realm.

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Guido van Drunen: In the safety realm in the you know financial performance realm and the performance appraisal realm where it’s like.

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Guido van Drunen: hmm is this outcome, really, the one that we wanted, you know and and and and regrettably sometimes that has led me to the conclusion of you know that it never ceases to amaze me the caliber of people, the organization can do without.

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Guido van Drunen: As a result, or four benchmarks.

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And so.

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Jason Mefford: Because we all we often make bad decisions.

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Jason Mefford: Right using numbers that we think are right and and and that that’s.

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Jason Mefford: How we end up killing ourselves sometimes because I tell people this and risk management, especially right is they think they’re making a good decision, but they’re relying on bad data.

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Jason Mefford: And so you know, sometimes the data doesn’t really tell us what we think it’s telling us right.

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Jason Mefford: And so again, so I just wanted to kind of because I know you’re using the term benchmark and then, so I just want to kind of level set for people because.

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Jason Mefford: Sometimes that term has different meanings to different people right so so while we’re kind of talking about when we use the word benchmark.

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Jason Mefford: it’s it’s tracking data or using data to try to drive behavior.

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Jason Mefford: So sometimes you know again that could be like budget, you know tracking a budget is a form of benchmark right to manage your actual spending versus what you budgeted.

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Jason Mefford: They could be things like key performance indicators right kpis sometimes people talk about our US that’d be another kind of example of this, but we’re even going to pull in some personal.

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Jason Mefford: stuff as well because, again we all track data or do certain things in our own personal life even and these same concepts relate there as well, so.

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Jason Mefford: So yeah I know you’ve been working on an on an article about this so let’s just kind of dig in you know with that I loved some of the quotes that you had the drucker quote and the Einstein quote in there which are great.

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Jason Mefford: In some of the kind of examples that we can talk through to just show people, what do we mean by this, how can this.

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Jason Mefford: You know, because, again, most people that I made her like data is good, we need data, we need to analyze the data we need to be tracking the data and we do, but right, and I think that’s what you want to share and I was talking about today.

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Guido van Drunen: Right and and again i’m certainly not suggesting, and I think your your your distinction here of what i’m turning as a benchmark is i’m not comparing.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, a company to its peers or or somebody to its peers, because I think that’s that that that brings with it a whole different set of problems that you could probably do 20 other podcasts on.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah but what i’m more looking at is okay, what are we measuring people against, and how does this cause them to behave.

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Guido van Drunen: And and is that necessarily in the best interest of the organization is it necessarily in their own best interests.

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Guido van Drunen: You know there’s a variety of things that come into the mix there that could be problematic, and you know, one of the things that I.

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Guido van Drunen: do want to stress is is that you know a lot of this is anecdotal and it’s based on experiences that i’ve had personally or have seen during the course of my career.

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Guido van Drunen: You know I have not done any you know statistical analysis of this and and and you came back you know to one thing is is data, I mean there’s just so much data out there right now.

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Guido van Drunen: And we should not necessarily always use that data or when we do use that data, we should think about Okay, what is this going to cause and what behaviors will it drive and I think that’s you know that’s that’s key.

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Guido van Drunen: You know you did mention that you know the Einstein quote I mean, to paraphrase.

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Guido van Drunen: We.

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Guido van Drunen: We should we shouldn’t always measure what we’re measuring and sometimes we can’t measure what we should be measuring right and and and that’s.

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Guido van Drunen: You know that that’s key and you know drucker has had had had.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, significant influence on management and the way things are done in business.

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Guido van Drunen: But I would say that spilled over to some of the things that you’ve mentioned earlier, as well.

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Guido van Drunen: But, but he you know he does stress that things need to be measured from a performance perspective but he’s not looking to drive perverse outcomes and sometimes our benchmarks.

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Guido van Drunen: As as used within an organization for people from a performance management perspective or safety perspective or you know, a sales perspective, sometimes drive perverse outcomes.

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Jason Mefford: And I think that’s that’s a lot of time I usually use the word like unintended consequences.

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Jason Mefford: As well right where it’s like we think.

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Jason Mefford: We think by measuring this, we think, by doing this is going to drive a certain behavior but, in fact, sometimes like a safety example we’re going to will probably talk about it actually drives the complete opposite behaviour of what you’re trying to.

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Jason Mefford: To insurance yeah.

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Guido van Drunen: And, not to say that you know look i’m i’m a big believer in safety, I mean I you know i’ve worked in you know, a manufacturing and.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, oil and gas chemical industry and, and you know i’ve been to plenty of sites well first thing we do is we start with a safety meeting right, whereas you know, in the professional services industry, people like you.

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Jason Mefford: That paper cut paper.

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Guido van Drunen: That that’s anathema right, I mean it’s you know it, to the point of Okay, if you if you have.

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Guido van Drunen: A red eye flight you’re not supposed to drive more than 15 minutes to your hotel those types of safety tips that just don’t exist in the consulting industry right because it’s just a different mindset, because if things go wrong in a chemical plant or in a petrochemical plant.

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Guido van Drunen: deal.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah that’s a big deal.

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You know.

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Guido van Drunen: But, but since we’re on the safety incident, you know we’ve all seen it right, if you go if you drive by a manufacturing facility, you see when you’re 17 days without any incidents from a safety perspective and that that’s that’s a really.

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Guido van Drunen: good thing to have where you’re you’re tracking and you’re making sure that you don’t have any safety issues but i’ve also seen situations where.

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Guido van Drunen: You know if if you do have a safety incident that you can get blamed for that, in the sense of.

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Guido van Drunen: Oh you’re going to lose part of your bonus or you’re going to not get that promotion, because you had a safety incident.

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Guido van Drunen: Now that could be directly attributable to you or it could be somebody on your team that had that incident, but you’re going to get impacted by that.

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Guido van Drunen: And that can sometimes drive aberrant behavior, for instance, if I you know in some remote locations, I experienced.

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Guido van Drunen: People had fallen off a ladder and I learned that that wasn’t recorded as a safety incident, they were just.

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Guido van Drunen: They were okay they’re a little bit banged up so you know what we’ll put them in the in the GMOs office to kind of cool down and then we’ll send them home for a week to recover.

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Guido van Drunen: But we’re not going to report that as a safety incident, because then we’ve got a day against our name, and so the benchmark as such.

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Guido van Drunen: Is measuring something that’s really important, but because of the consequences, sometimes you have aberrant behavior which then means people aren’t reporting what they should be reporting and that can that can have some serious consequences.

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Jason Mefford: Well yeah and I used to see that a lot because, again, I mean, I have a big manufacturing background as well, and it was we always used to track what were called last time incidents which meant.

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Jason Mefford: If somebody haven’t had a safety incident and they had to go home or go to the doctor if they weren’t able to show up for their next regularly scheduled shift.

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Jason Mefford: Then it counts as a last time event Okay, and again I mean in most of these situations, you want people to be safe, you put safety equipment in place.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s it’s inevitable that something is going to happen when you’re working with big machinery right or heavy things.

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Jason Mefford: And so, but the problem would end up being is usually there would be some incentive associated with it hey if we go to 180 days or if we go 365 days without an accident.

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Jason Mefford: Everybody in the plant gets a bonus right here’s $100 gift card to home depot whatever right.

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Jason Mefford: And so you know it’s fine at first, but the closer you start to get to the hundred and 80 days.

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Jason Mefford: Or the 365 days what we would find is just like you talked about somebody falls off the ladder oh good oh you’re not really heard our yeah oh geez you know I can see that looks like you broke your leg well we’re gonna have to send you to the doctor but show up to your shift tomorrow.

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Jason Mefford: Because that I don’t have to count it.

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Jason Mefford: against me right, because if that happens, everybody loses out on that incentive, and so it encourages people usually to hide things that you don’t want them to hide right now report it not do stuff like that.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah and then you know let’s let’s take this out of it, you know and that’s not meant to be nefarious or anything like that, but I, you know another example is you know you measure spills and breakages right.

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Guido van Drunen: And so.

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Guido van Drunen: You know i’ve seen people saying well we’ve reduced our skills and breakages by 30% but in that same time period, you had a downsizing a 50% of the staff so in theory you’d have to say it kind of went up as opposed to.

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Jason Mefford: should have gotten out by 50% but.

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Guido van Drunen: But the measure you know so so you know you’re not comparing apples to apples in situations like that and that’s another area of risk and.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, I think that that almost kind of ties into the you know that there’s a big surge on with ESP reporting, we talked about a little bit at some point in time and.

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Guido van Drunen: And everybody wanting to be part of the you know, environmental sustainability and governance component and and I think the next area where we might see some of these benchmarks.

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Guido van Drunen: and frankly might see we’ve already seen it, you know there there’s this term called Greenwashing right where people are making claims in relation to this is what we’re doing to improve the environment.

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Guido van Drunen: And it might not necessarily actually improve the environment, it might actually when you start poking at it, it could actually be worse and and that could be from a slave Labor perspective or it could be from a.

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Guido van Drunen: Environmental impact perspective, but the whole SG you know initiative, which is now really gained a lot of force and steam.

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Guido van Drunen: does have some some problems behind it from a Greenwashing perspective, which is again, you know benchmarks put in place that might not necessarily achieve what you’re trying to achieve.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and that’s why there’s there’s you know the Greenwashing so again, that that might be a term that some of you are not familiar with so i’ll just.

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Jason Mefford: Just kind of explain that and then i’ll give you a real life example of that Okay, but Greenwashing is where is where you’re putting out numbers.

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Jason Mefford: To show that you’re environmentally friendly, when in fact your actual actions underneath it are not.

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Jason Mefford: necessarily what you are are presenting to the public Okay, and so this happens, sometimes I mean people could could call it fraud, you know at that point if you’re if you’re.

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Jason Mefford: You know intentionally misleading the public that would be fraud but what’s funny is this this comes about with environmentally friendly.

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Jason Mefford: movie stars public figures people like this Okay, and so that here’s here’s like a real life example is you know you get somebody who is.

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Jason Mefford: let’s just say they’re a social influencer they’re an actor or an actress everybody knows who they are okay.

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Jason Mefford: And so you see them they’re driving around here in La you know in their pre s or in their tesla.

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Jason Mefford: Because you know they want to show that they’re being environmentally friendly so they’re driving a car that runs off electricity okay or that’s hybrid so that they’re not.

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Jason Mefford: polluting right like people that would you know the in and sometimes they might even sneer at somebody who’s who’s driving a big truck you know put this pumping out exhaust out of the back.

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Jason Mefford: And they say oh look at me i’m driving the tesla or the Prius i’m i’m environmentally friendly.

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Jason Mefford: And so, on the one hand they’re doing that, and then they go jump on their private jet to fly across the country to New York for a gig.

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Jason Mefford: And in that one flight right they put more more greenhouse gases into the environment by taking a private jet.

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Jason Mefford: Then they will, for the rest of their life in any car that they drive right and so that’s an example to where sometimes we get a little we think we’re managing it well, but there’s another part that we’re not right.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah and and I look again, not to say that there shouldn’t be benchmarks and that we shouldn’t be measuring things are measuring performance but you know if you don’t.

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Guido van Drunen: really think about these benchmarks that you’re using for performance or other things you can you can end up with.

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Guido van Drunen: You know we’ve referred to it as a law of unintended consequences which can be really severe I mean if we take an example, just on the on the HR side of the House, you know performance appraisals, I mean you know every organization does them.

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Guido van Drunen: You know G was was known.

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Jason Mefford: You know, in the wealth oh yeah you know ranking yank.

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Guido van Drunen: Everybody everybody wanted to adopt the rank and yank system, so they so they did G got rid of it, years ago, because they you know if you take it to its logical conclusion, every 10 years you’d have all new people.

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Guido van Drunen: You know if you if you just extrapolate that out and and that they would see and there’s a there’s a.

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Guido van Drunen: Very good book out at the moment called lights out it’s about the G story and how you know underwhelm mo from the successors to those guys what what actually happened along the way.

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Guido van Drunen: And that they provide an anecdotal example of where people were you know, had been deceased during the course of the year or die during the course of the year were put into the system so that they could use them as being one.

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Jason Mefford: Of them.

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Guido van Drunen: that’s right.

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Guido van Drunen: And, and so you know G is kind of said look, this is, this is no longer a suitable methodology to use, but other people adopted it after JI said no, this doesn’t work and and have proceeded with it anyway right so it’s.

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Guido van Drunen: Again, it can drive.

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Guido van Drunen: What I would consider to be aberrant behavior i’ve seen people saying okay look.

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Guido van Drunen: This year you’d be in the bottom quartile and the next year i’ll be in the bottom core tile so they you know they’re you start rotational programs along those lines and that’s totally inappropriate as well.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, so if if you’re really doing something from an HR perspective I you know, there needs to be a real cohesion.

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Guido van Drunen: Between the development of that benchmark the people that are getting measured and and how that is going to get tied to.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, compensation and everything’s and to some extent, you know if we bring it back to auditing for just a second.

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Guido van Drunen: You know the the external auditors in the internal auditors are already looking at this right so what’s the compensation scheme, what is the compensation scheme and centralized So where are some of the risks that might arise as a result of this, but it’s it’s not necessarily.

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Guido van Drunen: as well.

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Guido van Drunen: thought out and disciplined as it should be, from my perspective, because there’s there’s there’s some things that can really go wrong here and and and I think we’ve seen that in the past.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, look, this is this not, this is not anything new, this is old as Roman times right, you know the word audit comes from Latin to here, which is what they used to do here, the accounts, the only problem was if you feel the audits back then.

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Guido van Drunen: The consequences were a little bit more severe.

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Jason Mefford: than they are now.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and so I wanted to kind of because what you were just talking about their brings up.

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Jason Mefford: kind of two other things, there you know with the performance evaluations that I that I thought i’d bring up and and one is to kind of you know, set the stage a little bit with.

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Jason Mefford: You know any of you that might have kids or that have gone through academics right we’ve had a bell curve forever right a B, C D E, F okay and and.

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Jason Mefford: And a traditional bell curve there’s a certain percentage of the people that would get a’s b’s and c’s d’s and f’s right and most people.

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Jason Mefford: Average is C right, and so, in theory, under traditional bell curve almost 70% of the people would get a C and that used to be acceptable.

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Jason Mefford: right because we just understand, so it, how it works see is not bad it’s just average, but over time, there has been this you know grade inflation to where now.

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Jason Mefford: We have to give everybody a’s and b’s and if you get a C it’s really like you’re failing right, and so, because of that, even though we had a a mechanism.

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Jason Mefford: For for grading it’s it’s gotten out of whack right, but some of these unintended consequences of what it’s it’s not supposed to be, and this has crept its way into performance evaluations as well right.

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Jason Mefford: And i’ve seen this on the on the positive side and on the negative side, the one is where same thing everybody gets a four or five why, because if I put a three.

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Jason Mefford: then that person feels like they’re fail and I got to go through a bunch of red tape to explain why this person is just average right.

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Jason Mefford: So you’ve got that one side, the other side that i’ve seen as well, is where draconian methods are used to say, well, nobody on your within your team, you have to make the bell curve, which means so so sometimes if people have let’s say a group of 10 people.

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Jason Mefford: Right well if they can only give maybe one five and two fours and the rest, have to be in whatever right which which can sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: disadvantage certain groups who may be have a higher percentage of overachievers over performers than some of the other groups.

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Jason Mefford: And so, because of that these high performing people actually end up getting a lower grade simply because of the department that they happen to be in right and so again I don’t know if you’ve seen that too or.

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Guido van Drunen: That look you raise your rates three things there that are really quite crucial from my perspective, first of all, what I call the lake wobegon issue where everybody is above average right.

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Guido van Drunen: Gary garrison keillor made that very clear.

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Guido van Drunen: You know lake wobegon everybody is above average did you know that that’s not the case, but suppose you have a hiring manager, who has a team of three.

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Guido van Drunen: But he’s tough as nails and who we hires and what he hires and he really get some really top performers and he’s got three people.

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Guido van Drunen: And they’re all mocking the cover off the ball, but yet he has to force rank them and he’s got a small population so he’s got 151.

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Guido van Drunen: And two threes or whatever you know, whatever we want to call the numbers right and then you’ve got somebody else who is also a manager, who has 12 people but he’s not as or she is not as.

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Guido van Drunen: What I would call a.

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Guido van Drunen: disciplined in hiring top talent, that person is going to you know you could have three people in the one group who should be ranked number one but they they won’t be because.

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Guido van Drunen: You know there’s there’s there’s not enough of them, whereas the other people.

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Guido van Drunen: In that group they’re going to have at least two or three number ones in that group which might be lower performers and the ones that are there so that that’s that’s inherently unfair I don’t know how you fix that it is an issue it’s a benchmarking issue.

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Guido van Drunen: But I don’t know what the solution is in that situation, what I do know is that the fastest way to lose really, really good employees is not to deal with the bad employees.

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Guido van Drunen: Right, and so you know if if they see that inequity occurring and and they’re good they can vote with their feet and they will yeah.

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Jason Mefford: And so, and.

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Guido van Drunen: Yes, Jason.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I was gonna say totally totally true because, like you said, the problem is and like I said i’ve seen this over my career, because I like to think that I had some above average people in my in my group.

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Jason Mefford: You know who were outperforming.

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Jason Mefford: Some of the people in my peers groups, but they had they got lower performance ratings right and then on the flip side another one that that that that.

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Jason Mefford: i’ve heard a lot, too, is this came from a lot of people like to do surveys to collect data again to kind of benchmark off of right, and so one of the.

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Jason Mefford: The Auto manufacturers won’t say which one, but every time you get service done and I actually probably all of them do this but i’m thinking of a particular one, this is a real life example okay.

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Jason Mefford: Is you know, every time you go and you have your car service right you go and you get oil change you get whatever right put new tires on it whatever you get a survey in the mail.

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Jason Mefford: or on the phone that you have to fill out now i’ve had.

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Jason Mefford: People at the dealerships say this to me and, in fact, one of my friends used to be a service writer, for one, this manufacturer that one of their dealerships, and so I heard this from several different places of you’re going to get a survey.

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Jason Mefford: And if there’s any reason why you can’t give me a tan I need you to let me know right now, so I can fix it so when that survey comes, you will give me a 10 out of 10.

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Jason Mefford: And so, like the first time I heard this i’m like what are you talking about and they’re like.

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Jason Mefford: Our corporate is pretty stringent about this if we get anything less than 10 you know all hell breaks loose on us right and we can end up losing our job or having their compensation cut back.

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Jason Mefford: And At first it kind of blew me and I was I stopped in my tracks like are you kidding me to yet not everybody can do 10 out of 10 it just doesn’t work.

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Jason Mefford: I mean no matter how good you do.

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Jason Mefford: Some people would would not rate you as a 10 anyway, and your your service level is probably never always going to be at a 10 what’s wrong with a seven or an eight.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but so because of that they’re there they’ve put this whole intricate system in place they’re collecting all of this data and, at the end of the day, the data means nothing.

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Jason Mefford: because all the data has been manipulated to be 10s.

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Guido van Drunen: Right, well, I guess, we must drive the same car.

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Jason Mefford: The same survey.

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Jason Mefford: off air, we can talk about it, but having said that i’ve got i’ve got two different makes and they you know it’s this it’s the same thing, so you know.

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Guido van Drunen: I that that is a situation where you know people have become so cognizant of what they’re measured against that they start to manipulate the benchmark.

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Guido van Drunen: And the monitoring of those benchmarks, as a result is flawed right it’s not just having a benchmark and then say oh everybody achieved it but also how did you achieve the benchmark right, I mean it’s like I got the most sales well had to do that Okay, the most bribes.

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Guido van Drunen: Well there’s a bit of a problem here right laughing about that, but that is.

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Guido van Drunen: So what.

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Jason Mefford: happens in real life.

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Guido van Drunen: Right and and you know it’s it’s it’s one of these things that.

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Guido van Drunen: You know you have to be very, very careful and you know, one of the things that I write about in the article is that it, you know if you look at these benchmarks.

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Guido van Drunen: You should always pull them back towards the you know code of conduct and the mission statement and the value statement of the organization and say how does this tie in.

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Guido van Drunen: And how does it actually help us achieve this within the framework right and and I i’m not sure.

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Guido van Drunen: As to whether those individuals devising the benchmarks can actually show me a documentary trail.

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Guido van Drunen: That would tie them to the core values of an organization, where the code of conduct, you know say Oh well, the Code of Conduct overrides everything right well.

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Guido van Drunen: You know it’s just just just do the right thing well you know what is the right thing, because Fred next door is getting.

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Guido van Drunen: Six grand a month more because he’s going to X, Y and Z entertainment and I can’t go to that entertainment because it’s kind of it, you know you think start to slip you know so it’s it’s that kind of situation that you’re dealing with.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I think a lot of times to like you said you know, we need to have, because this is another mistake that a lot of people make.

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Jason Mefford: Is they start measuring things without really having that line of sight.

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Jason Mefford: As to what it is that we’re trying to accomplish and what really is important right because, like we said, you know I think I think the Einstein quote not everything that counts, can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts right and i’ve seen a lot of people that.

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Jason Mefford: they’ll default to using certain metrics because they’re easy to calculate it’s easy to get the information so we’re going to track that.

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Jason Mefford: But, are you tracking that because it’s really what’s important right and that’s where, again, we need to have a lot of those discussions, so I thought i’d bring up a little bit more of a personal nature into this because we were talking before about.

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Jason Mefford: Like are.

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Jason Mefford: You know the iPhone or the the the I watch the wall.

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Guido van Drunen: I watch her yeah I got I got whatever you call it.

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Guido van Drunen: I got a fitbit so.

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Jason Mefford: You got a fitbit so.

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Jason Mefford: same same concept side, but I know you know, for those of you that have apple watches there’s.

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Jason Mefford: there’s a little activity monitor on it and they it’s it’s called closing your three rings right so apple puts on there, and says hey you know you should probably.

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Jason Mefford: Stand up at least a certain number of times during the during the day, you should have a certain number of exercise minutes you should probably.

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Jason Mefford: burn a certain number of active calories and so again, you can kind of decide what your goals are going to be on it, but there’s a lot of pride in closing the three rings okay.

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Jason Mefford: In the end, it’s a way to motivate you I mean they’re doing it, to help us become more active and fit I get it, I love it, you know and that way but.

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Jason Mefford: I know, for me, I got to a point where it’s like you know why is my exercise ring not close.

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Jason Mefford: it’s like i’m going out for my walk and walk in 35 or 40 minutes, every day, how come my watch is not giving me credit for that right.

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Jason Mefford: And it was because my heart rate wasn’t high enough right and so again it’s like well what’s more important me burning the number of calories.

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Jason Mefford: me moving my body for that much of the day, or is it really that important that my exercise ring closed and, at the end of the day, if it didn’t matter whether my exercise ring closed it matters right, the reason behind why i’m tracking this and why that means anything, or why it’s important.

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Jason Mefford: And why it even want to spend any time.

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Jason Mefford: Focusing on it right and i’m sure it’s the same way with your fitbit too right, I mean there’s something similar to.

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Guido van Drunen: Absolutely, and you know I don’t know I don’t know if you remember that commercial where the lady is sitting in the park.

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Guido van Drunen: eating an ice cream and she’s got her dog she’s got a pedometer on the dog’s tail.

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Guido van Drunen: Right right so so it’s one of those things where you know you get so obsessed by.

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Guido van Drunen: Oh, I got to make this thing day where it needs to date, so I get my little 10,000 steps, or I get my 3000 calories or I do this or I do that.

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Guido van Drunen: That well why are you actually trying to do this kind of become secondary now, one could argue that well if you get that stuff you get the benefits absolutely.

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Guido van Drunen: But you know what what is the ultimate purpose of doing this right it’s it’s to get healthier and and do we want to.

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Guido van Drunen: You know manipulate that or or you know, and you tied it to a personal situation, I mean you know you can tie that to a business situation, I mean in the article I also tie it to a.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, a war situation which is, which is effectively horrendous but you know these benchmarks are something that you know they get etched in people’s minds and and that becomes the be all and end all of you know perfect attendance awards right great award to have.

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Jason Mefford: Any of those in grade school, by the way, I was never.

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Jason Mefford: sick.

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Jason Mefford: When grown up yeah.

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Guido van Drunen: Well, well, maybe you were but you’ve got everybody else sick.

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Guido van Drunen: You know.

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Jason Mefford: I was the carrier right everybody else was out.

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Guido van Drunen: Right, so you know it’s it’s one of those things that yeah it’s great to have this but.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, like you said safety issues you get close to that hundred and 80 180 380 385 school days 179 you know i’ve got i’ve got the plague but i’m going in because i’m getting that award right, and so you get these these.

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Guido van Drunen: These situations that really don’t work well from a from an ultimate outcome perspective, I mean in the article I write a little bit about the Vietnam War where they were using body counts.

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Guido van Drunen: to determine, you know the efficacy of what what they were doing in South Vietnam via via North Vietnam, and you know that resulted in inflated statistics for.

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Guido van Drunen: For casualties and it resulted in including civilian casualties as being casualties that were supposedly warriors that weren’t and it and it resulted in.

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Guido van Drunen: People getting more resources to continue doing what wasn’t working right and and and that’s kind of.

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Guido van Drunen: The you know the the ultimate outcome here is, is that you know if you give people a benchmark and it doesn’t make any difference whether it’s from a personal perspective $1 and cents perspective.

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Guido van Drunen: It could be from a you know, a power perspective, it could be across the board, they will achieve that benchmark because they’re going to say well where’s my reward.

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Guido van Drunen: I have achieved my benchmark and that reward could be additional headcount.

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Guido van Drunen: It could be you know, a larger sales area, it could be a variety of different things right, because, if I have achieved my benchmark and I want to want to keep growing like that, I mean.

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Guido van Drunen: I mentioned, I think, in our previous podcast Jason about you know the organization that I did some work with where they had a annual Award for the best salespeople the top three sales people in a multinational organization.

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Guido van Drunen: We suggested, you might want to have a look at their travel expense reporting accounts and they went back three years and of the nine people that they looked at six of them were terminated for expense fraud abuse in achieving those awards right so again it’s it’s it was a benchmark.

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Guido van Drunen: That was beneficial in the short term, to the organization, but in the longer term, it was detrimental to the individual was detrimental the organization.

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Guido van Drunen: And they didn’t necessarily achieve what they wanted to achieve and in in a in a manner that could stay in the light of day, which is problematic.

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Jason Mefford: And I think what you just brought up there, too, is is an important important thing to remember is the time horizon right is is is again a lot of times.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of times what’s right in the short term is not right for the long or mid term.

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Jason Mefford: But if what you’re tracking is short term in nature, it can lead to some serious long term ramifications so we’ll give you a.

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Jason Mefford: Great example that crashed the stock market a couple of times folks okay So these are like real real examples is some of the short term nature back in the 90s.

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Jason Mefford: Right you remember this, to write all the.com bubble, and the stock option issue, the effective hiding of losses as a result of that and.

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Jason Mefford: And the fact that you know again it was what’s my stock price going to be on the quarter because that’s going to determine whether or not to get my stock option if it has any value or not.

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Jason Mefford: And when you’re talking about millions of dollars, there were a lot of the executives that were willing to fraudulently put out financial numbers to the street.

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Jason Mefford: To keep the stock price up kept the stock price up high enough only problem was next quarter.

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Jason Mefford: The next round of options had to be at a higher price right and so that’s how you ended up getting companies like Enron that I think we’re trading at 95 and within two weeks, it was trading it too right and this happened this happened a lot, you know and.

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Jason Mefford: In that in that timeframe short term incentive short term benchmarking and numbers.

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Jason Mefford: That have a big long term effect.

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Guido van Drunen: But let me give you another example along those lines, although it’s more in the private equity space for venture capital space right, I mean.

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Guido van Drunen: You know venture capital funds, they will they will have a.

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Guido van Drunen: company that goes public right and those those are thinly traded shares.

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Guido van Drunen: You know they don’t want to necessarily flood the market with 7 million shares, because it will cause a price to plummet right.

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Guido van Drunen: But i’ve seen, regrettably, where you know the right before fundraising starts and they want to boost the irr where certain venture funds have decided that you know what.

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Guido van Drunen: If we buy 10,000 shares of this $3 stock it’s going to go up to $8 or irr is going to look great because we hold this many shares in the fund that we can mark them to market.

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Guido van Drunen: Right and and so short term benchmark to go and raise funds to show a better irr and if you know, be careful.

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Guido van Drunen: You know that those are those are things that have occurred, I think you know people are watching that more closely now and there’s there’s there’s a lot more focus on that.

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Guido van Drunen: But the other thing is, I mean I sit here in a position of luxury right, I mean I got I got my computer I got my coffee I got everything I got my car in the garage, even if I have to put a 10 on the.

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survey.

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Guido van Drunen: But you know if you’re running a startup and and you’ve you’ve got to drive sales to be able to get your next round of funding or you’ve got to drive you know visits, you know I don’t know.

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Guido van Drunen: visits to a website or drive you know, whatever whatever you’re using as a metric and it’s going to be.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, death or success, you know, based on that it becomes very, very difficult and it takes a lot of character to say you know what we’re not going to hit that target this month, but we’ll hit it next month.

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Guido van Drunen: You know we’re seeing the fair and I was trial, which has just started as well.

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Guido van Drunen: And you know they were they were saying we have this many tests that are successful apparently that wasn’t the case, the trial will reveal what was the case we’ll see what happens.

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Guido van Drunen: But you know there were benchmarks set for themselves, which then they reiterated outside of the organization as to what they were going to achieve.

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Guido van Drunen: And they couldn’t hit them and it caused aberrant behavior and and and it was a matter of survival.

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Guido van Drunen: And so again, it takes a very strong person to be able to say you know what we’re not going to be able to make it this quarter.

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Guido van Drunen: But we can make it next quarter, I mean I take my hat off to target who really got hammered when they decided they were going to do this revamping in the in the long term, it was the right thing to do, and if you look at their stock price that that’s evidenced but.

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Guido van Drunen: The street punish them for you know reinvesting capital into the stores and things like that so there’s there’s a variety of.

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Guido van Drunen: individuals and and, ultimately, it always comes down to people right it always comes down to people can you say no, when you have to say no, and and frankly i’m not sure I could always say no, when I have to say no i’d like to think the answer to that would be yes.

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Guido van Drunen: But it comes down to people.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and like you said it’s it’s it’s the behavior or it’s it’s it’s a lot of times the pressure on it right, I mean I mean again like you talked about if you if you’ve you know the livelihood of your businesses hey we can’t raise our next our next 90 days of cash.

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Jason Mefford: From a startup company.

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Jason Mefford: Unless I meet certain things right you’re going to do whatever it takes to get to that point and know there’s a whole concept in in the law about duress right.

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Jason Mefford: If somebody holds a gun to your head and you sign a contract you didn’t really sign the contract right because duress, you were under duress, therefore, you were not making it if you’re on free well right.

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Jason Mefford: And how many people end up onto the equivalent of duress, because sometimes some really ludicrous or over overarching things you know reminds me the wells fargo eight is great.

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Jason Mefford: They just came up with the number eight because the rind with great there was no foundation for having eight accounts.

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Jason Mefford: You know, with each customer it just rhymed with the word eight I think the average in the industry was 2.2 or 2.7 something like that.

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Jason Mefford: Right so but, again, you had thousands of people at one of the biggest banks in the world who felt like they had a gun to their head that you do it or you’re out on the street.

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Guido van Drunen: And for a lot of people that’s their livelihood right, I mean your their families, going to lose their house.

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Jason Mefford: If they don’t do some of those things.

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Guido van Drunen: They effectively did have a gun to their head and and you know my understanding is that.

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Guido van Drunen: You know that that reporters is is available online and they felt a significant amount of pressure.

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Guido van Drunen: You know.

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Guido van Drunen: and acted accordingly, which was not the way you should have acted and even when they tried to run it up the flagpole it was like.

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Guido van Drunen: You know nothing, nothing happened.

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Guido van Drunen: But you know, so be it, you know, the thing that I really think is is very important here, though, is is that you know if.

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Guido van Drunen: What we need to do, and we don’t do this often enough, and this needs to be done, not just from an audit perspective or a business perspective, the thing I would really like to leave people with is saying okay i’m measuring this this is success what why.

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Jason Mefford: Why.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, you know those five good friends have I who, what, when, where and why, in this particular situation, why is is just crucial what, why is this a good measure of how I am doing.

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Guido van Drunen: And, and that might actually result in you saying well, maybe I don’t fit here, because this isn’t the way you know that I necessarily do anything right, I mean you know if you look at professional services utilization rates or.

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Guido van Drunen: If you look at, if you look at manufacturing capacity utilization rates.

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Guido van Drunen: But those are those are very, very important.

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Guido van Drunen: But if I have a you know 90% utilization rate but i’m only collecting 50% of what.

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Jason Mefford: you’re producing yeah okay right.

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Guido van Drunen: So so again it’s it’s it’s not just having a benchmark it’s not just scrutinizing the benchmark, we also need to monitor.

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Guido van Drunen: The people that are actually saying okay I got this or I hit the target okay well how did you hit the target right.

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Guido van Drunen: And, and what are the you know because look gaming the system is is is in some situations, you know national sport, I mean if you look at you know back in in the old Cold War days Russia had the five year.

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Guido van Drunen: Communist plan right okay we’re going to make 700 tank turrets but we’re only going to make 300 treads.

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Guido van Drunen: So, how does How does that even fit together and everybody was just so focused on their measure of success that the overall outcome, you know, in addition to Reagan bankrupting them effectively.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, did not achieve what they were trying to achieve right so there’s there’s there’s the there’s the individual benchmark, it has to be looked at it from an organizational perspective, and you know you’ve run into the site agreement issue on sales probably a plethora of times.

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Guido van Drunen: You know I mean I don’t know what else you know Jason but I, my key key point is.

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Guido van Drunen: ask why and then continually look at these benchmarks that you’re actually being measured against and make sure that you’re not going off the reservation and make sure that the people who you’re measuring against benchmarks.

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Guido van Drunen: be treated fairly, because because, again, you know, the best way to lose employees is you know to to not deal with with non performers.

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Guido van Drunen: Who could per the benchmarks be solid performers right quite often we’ve mentioned professional services organizations is like well let’s put Fred on that project because it’s it’s.

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Guido van Drunen: it’s kind of mundane he’s not really that great he can he can just you know stamp the the the documents and and he’ll be 100% utilized year and comes around well let’s get Fred a bonus he’s 100% utilized.

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Guido van Drunen: he’s dumber than a box of rocks but he’s 100% utilized.

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Guido van Drunen: You know.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because, like you said a lot of times there’s you know so ask the questions because sometimes especially these individual things that you’re measuring by themselves to they fit in the bigger picture.

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Jason Mefford: You know and and how important are some of these things too, because you know I wanted to kind of into you know little bit on a you know personal note, as well right because coaching people, especially people that are high achievers I see this, a lot of the time where.

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Jason Mefford: they’ll set themselves.

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Jason Mefford: On on on the unachievable metrics targets as well right, and so you know, so what ends up happening or there or they’re measuring the wrong thing right like I.

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Jason Mefford: said right is it more important if you’re trying to be healthy, just to be moving.

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Jason Mefford: Okay there’s differences there then if weight loss is your intention right you’d be you’d be measuring different things if you’re looking for you know, health and energy versus weight loss right.

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Jason Mefford: But but, but the same thing too is is is sometimes we we tend to you know, do the equivalent of putting the gun to somebody’s head and saying you’re going to do this, that I know is completely unreasonable.

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Jason Mefford: But you’re going to figure out a way to do it, and the problem is when we do that, to ourselves what ends up happening is we start.

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Jason Mefford: Blaming ourself we start going down this spiral, where we think we’re a piece of shit because we didn’t meet some unreasonable goal that we set for ourselves.

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Jason Mefford: So, again right just to kind of think about it, too, is well you know, is it the right thing to measure to help us get the long term, result.

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Jason Mefford: And is whatever target or goal I sat Is it actually reasonable, yes, we want some stretch goals right, but again what’s what’s more important right is.

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Jason Mefford: I love the story that I heard attributable to Muhammad Ali I didn’t hear it from himself, but it’s a great story anyway right where he said I don’t count my push ups.

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Jason Mefford: What do you mean you don’t catch push ups right, most of us would say i’m going to do three sets of 20 push ups in a day so i’m going to do 60 a day i’m going to count them out right.

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Jason Mefford: And i’m going to mark on my little list that I did my three sets of 20 right good, so I do the 20 and he says no, I just do push ups until I can’t do them anymore.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s the difference between a world champion and the rest of us to right.

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Jason Mefford: yep did Muhammad Ali have a need to track how many pushups he did no he just did them he didn’t count them in fact here’s subconsciously you’ll do more push ups, if you don’t count them.

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Jason Mefford: You don’t realize that.

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Guido van Drunen: i’m not doing any of them.

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Jason Mefford: So doesn’t matter anyway right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah you could you actually will do more push ups.

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Jason Mefford: If you’re not counting them because you don’t know where you’re actually at.

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Guido van Drunen: You know it it’s a valid point, and you know, bringing this back to in the beginning, when you when you mentioned, you know the you know my interpretation of benchmark, I mean I defined it in my article.

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Guido van Drunen: But one of the things that I found very, very fascinating I mean if you look at corporate salaries in the US, compared to the rest of the world, I mean they’re.

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Guido van Drunen: You know they’re they’re multiples I mean many, many multiples higher than they are in Western Europe, or in other jurisdictions for publicly traded entities right and.

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Guido van Drunen: One of the things that’s kind of interesting about this, all these.

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Guido van Drunen: salary and and advisors, to the board are going around and benchmarking against these other entities, and so this becomes an arms race.

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Guido van Drunen: Right, they all want to outdo each other so so you know that the benchmarking, there has become part of the problem of the of the inflation.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, used to be, it was about 40 times a line worker salary that the CEO got now it’s like 250 to 300 times.

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Guido van Drunen: You know and, and that is as a result of you know, the benchmarking that you were referring to as a start as but it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s a misuse and then.

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Guido van Drunen: And then talk about unrealistic goals and and and and setting aspirational goals for yourself and how that can go wrong.

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Guido van Drunen: And I can’t remember if this was Louis or if it was Clark, but you know they came back from the expedition one of them became the Governor of one of these massive territories.

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Guido van Drunen: and any he shot himself and said I really haven’t done much with my life.

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Guido van Drunen: And and and you know he had such high expectations for himself and the benchmarks, he said, for himself resulted in a what I would consider to be an aberrant outcome.

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Guido van Drunen: When he could have contributed a lot more and that’s that’s really a crappy way to end this we got it we got to come up with something a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: we’re gonna laugh a little bit on it, too, but but it’s.

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Jason Mefford: it’s it’s with this just with any of the other podcasts right folks everybody who’s listening there’s layers to this.

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Jason Mefford: And if you think we’re just talking about how to be a better leader or how to do this in the corporate world you didn’t hear us fully right go back and listen again.

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Jason Mefford: Because you know a lot of times you know, like you said whether it was Louis or Clark, whoever was right, how many of our organizations.

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Jason Mefford: are doing effectively the same thing, how many people within the organization’s maybe they’re not shooting themselves but they’re having a nervous breakdown.

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Jason Mefford: or they’re committing fraud they’re having to go to jail they’re doing some of these other things because of these unrealistic expectations and we’re placing on people.

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Jason Mefford: Because the benchmarks, the metrics are set too high or they don’t even matter right, in fact I would dare say, probably half the things we’re measuring stop measuring nobody’s gonna even notice.

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Guido van Drunen: But how often have you seen it, you know at year end well, what did we do this year we did 100 million well let’s increase that by 10% well, based on what right if.

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Jason Mefford: You go figure it out yeah.

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Guido van Drunen: You know it.

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Guido van Drunen: Is the economy, the economy shrinking.

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Guido van Drunen: there’s more competition, what we’re going to do an additional 10% well okay i’m happy to sign up for that 10% where do you think it’s going to be coming from.

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Guido van Drunen: You know and and that’s a that’s a top down approach you know people say well we’ll use a top down in a bottoms up approach to come up with what we’re supposed to do.

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Guido van Drunen: You know that that’s one reason that zero Based Budgeting is not necessarily a bad thing with brings brings other unique problems with it, but just just just saying or 20% more than last year.

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Guido van Drunen: Based on why you know why.

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Jason Mefford: Well i’ll tell you I don’t know that I have ever seen a bottom up approach that wasn’t top down.

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Jason Mefford: In essence, because what happens is the bottom up, brings it up and the top says, you said 8% nope 8% not good enough go back and make it 10%.

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Guido van Drunen: You know, conversely, i’ve seen the same thing, where you’re trying to figure out Okay, should we do this investment, you know, invest in this particular project or by this particular entity, what do we think the Roi is going to be well it’s only going to be a 7% Roi.

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Jason Mefford: nope it’s going to be the hurdle rate on my form.

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Guido van Drunen: exactly right, you know if somebody gets deal fever, the benchmark doesn’t matter because we’re going to you know we’re going to achieve that benchmark by either reducing the you know the CAP rate, or whatever you know what I mean.

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Jason Mefford: No, I went through a couple acquisitions, with a CEO that was that way I don’t care if the numbers don’t work we’re doing it.

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yeah.

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Guido van Drunen: which can make sense, I mean i’ve i’ve seen that worked out very, very well, where the only reason they bought the enemy was to put it out of business right.

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Guido van Drunen: yeah you know and and that that can make sense to some extent, but you know you’ve got to be careful because you know it is the CEO getting.

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Guido van Drunen: measured on how many deals get done, and you know, are we looking you know you know we have this clawback provision now for publicly traded entities.

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Guido van Drunen: it’s very rarely, if it’s been very rarely used right, but when you think about it, should an acquisition be measured.

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Guido van Drunen: On success in year one year, two or year three or year five year 10 right, I mean what is the what is this the the right measure there because.

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Guido van Drunen: You know just just because you’ve brought this entity in hasn’t been a creative and value or is it just basically a bolt on that has sucked up resources.

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Jason Mefford: Good stuff I know we need to kind of wrap up because I know people have to get back to their day to but maybe just kind of.

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Jason Mefford: You know kind of wrap up give everybody a little little some of the high points again because.

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Jason Mefford: You know first off if you’re if you’re not measuring anything, maybe you should ask yourself, maybe we should right because we use the perform if there’s some metrics.

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Jason Mefford: But if you are using these metrics are they the right numbers, is it measuring what you think it’s measuring.

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Jason Mefford: Are the expectations are unrealistic to where you could end up getting some of these unintended consequences as well because again we’ve shared several different anecdotal things of real life examples to have where this ends up sometimes going awry.

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Jason Mefford: So, again today’s you know just be careful about what it is that you’re measuring.

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Jason Mefford: And really asked the question right because again some so so many people now we just put our head down we do what we’re told we don’t ever question anything or everything about anything so again it’s meant to be thought provoking.

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Jason Mefford: Just chances are you’re measuring something you probably don’t need to you might be measuring it and thinking that certain things are happening and they’re not so any final final comments or you.

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Guido van Drunen: know I you know Jason thanks again I really appreciate it um you know I will post my article on linkedin and do course.

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Guido van Drunen: There will be more to follow.

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Guido van Drunen: You know I just think we just need to be very, very careful when we should be measuring things but we just need to be very cognizant of what we’re measuring and what the outcomes will be and hopefully this will help people just you know ask you know why am I doing this.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s one of the important questions right one of your favorite friends.

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Guido van Drunen: Why yep.

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Guido van Drunen: So thanks again.

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Jason Mefford: Oh you’re welcome man we’ll have to have you back to, because we always have free time so.

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Guido van Drunen: Alright sounds good.

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Thanks.

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

This is another tables-are-turned Jamming with Jason episode where Sam Osbourne from The School of Self Worth interviews Jason Mefford.

The topic for today involves life long learning and how it’s important to be learning something new everyday!

Highlights of this episode include:
-Getting out of your own head (believe it or not, indecision and your own subconscious hampers change!)
-The pay off in investing in your own learning
-How Learning actually prevents you from being a BORING person

So lets dive in to todays episode and begin growing and becoming a more knowledgeable person than we were yesterday!

Because learning is FUN!!!

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

Prefer to watch the video?? Here it is:

In today’s episode of #jammingwithjason we speak with Jen Stillion who has been a performer and dance educator for many years.

Jen is here to talk with us about helpful ways that we can get out of our own heads and stop sweating the small stuff.

Whether you’re looking to become a better leader, spouse, executive or whatever, dance is a great way to enjoy yourself and be your own authentic person while removing your own fears and blockages that have been holding you back in life.

If this episode resonated with you go ahead and connect with Jen on Instagram @jenstillion

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason211/

Get a VIP backstage pass and behind the scenes information when you sign up for The Jamming with Jason newsletter: https://bit.ly/3k53OjS

And a big benefit of listening here on my website, is access to the video too 🙂

Transcript

1
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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jason hey today I have my good friend Jen Stilion with me and you know we talk sometimes about getting out of our head.

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Jason Mefford: and give you some different tools in order to do that right, because sometimes we just ruminate over and over and over again and it’s like how do I get out of my head, how do I stop thinking.

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Jason Mefford: and Jan is one of those people that helps people get out of their head and get out of some of the self doubt so.

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Jason Mefford: i’m excited to have Jen on with me so whatever you do make sure and listen to this whole episode in fact this is probably one of those episodes you might want to listen to more than once.

5
00:00:45.240 –> 00:00:53.940
Jason Mefford: And you’re probably after you listen going to want to share it with all of your friends and family so with that let’s roll out episode.

6
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Jen Stillion: eight.

7
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Chad.

8
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Jason Mefford: You doing my friend.

9
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Like I.

10
00:01:03.960 –> 00:01:11.700
Jason Mefford: figured there’s gonna be a little chair dancing there’s gonna be a little fun here because you’re one of those people that kind of like lights up the room.

11
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Jason Mefford: And one of the reasons why I love you and what you do, but it’s.

12
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Jason Mefford: So so maybe just just just spend a minute just kind of telling people you know kind of what you do, how you.

13
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Jason Mefford: help people come out of some of this overthinking and self doubt because.

14
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Jason Mefford: You know I know your business is transitioning a little bit, but you’ve helped you’ve helped people do this, a lot, you know how how have you done that.

15
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Jason Mefford: And then we’ll we’ll get in and we’ll see where it goes and probably talk about some different you know tactical things people can take away and actually start practicing this week as well, but let everybody know a little bit about you.

16
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Jen Stillion: Well, thank you so much for having me here Jason and yeah so basically, what I do, I have been a performer and a dancer and dance educator for many years.

17
00:02:01.140 –> 00:02:16.110
Jen Stillion: And I have you know studied dance and dance has you know my practice with dance has deepened and you know i’ve discovered that dance is such a powerful powerful tool.

18
00:02:16.590 –> 00:02:23.370
Jen Stillion: to really get you out of your head to get you out of all the head garbage all the overthinking all the self doubt.

19
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Jen Stillion: And it helps you get you out of the future, the future stuff that we get attached to future fears or whatnot that can cause you to overthink and cause you to doubt yourself.

20
00:02:36.270 –> 00:02:40.140
Jen Stillion: or get you out of the past right, so it gets you in the moment.

21
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Jen Stillion: And i’ve helped a lot of people get out of that and be with themselves and be in the moment so anything that I do you know i’m a speaker so if I go in front of a large audience or.

22
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Jen Stillion: Whether it’s on stage or these days it’s a lot with zoom you know I get people up and moving.

23
00:03:00.120 –> 00:03:07.740
Jen Stillion: And i’m talking about corporate peeps i’m talking about all different kinds of audience that they’re like what I have to get up and move and dance yes.

24
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Jen Stillion: Everything I do you know, and I talked about lots of different things.

25
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Jen Stillion: But dancing is a tool that I use everywhere, I go, because every single person has dance one time in their life, whether it’s at a wedding or a club or a party.

26
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Jen Stillion: You know you get up the music’s pumping you get out there, whether you think you’re a good dancer or not, and before you know what you’re having fun you’re half five and your friends, you know your favorite song comes on.

27
00:03:31.650 –> 00:03:39.210
Jen Stillion: And you’re out of your head you’re in the moment, and you are having so much fun that you’re not thinking about all the stressors and crap in your head.

28
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Jen Stillion: So this is why, specifically, I mean, I have a lot of tools that I give to my you know clients, but dancing is a really powerful one that I use, so this is how I help people I do one on one sessions.

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Jen Stillion: You know I speak, and you know i’m just passionate about life and dance is one of the things that has helped me get there.

30
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Jason Mefford: yeah well and and I think, because you know again you work with people that get in their head a lot.

31
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Jason Mefford: I do too.

32
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Jason Mefford: Right it’s.

33
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Jason Mefford: You know it’s that whole idea of past present future right if we think about those three different areas, and most of the time when we’re overthinking we’re either regretting or feeling shame about things that happened in the past or or anxious or we’re fearful.

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Jason Mefford: about things in the future.

35
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Jason Mefford: Right those those tend to be the two areas right where we’re just like.

36
00:04:33.990 –> 00:04:46.710
Jason Mefford: ruminating over and over and over in our head right it’s like oh my gosh what’s going to happen what’s this person going to do, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah right and to stay stuck in your head there you can kind of go a little crazy right.

37
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Jason Mefford: yeah and and so having tools like dance which, which you know I think is is fascinating and amazing I mean I sociology and psychology is like fascinating for me right, and if you think about.

38
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Jason Mefford: Any any civilization any any group go back to you know tribal nature any anything like that every organization or every every iteration of civilization has music and they have dance.

39
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Jason Mefford: Right and and I think there’s a reason for that, and especially now, you know in our society, we we kind of get out of that right, we might listen listen to some music, but how much are we actually.

40
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Jason Mefford: dancing and freeing ourselves right because to me that’s where it, you know i’m not a great dancer your professional dancer i’m just like this.

41
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Jason Mefford: awkward white guy you know.

42
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Jason Mefford: But it’s like you know.

43
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Jason Mefford: dances not just about like a formality either right so so maybe we can talk about that a little bit you know, because when I was in college, one of my PE classes was ballroom dancing.

44
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Jen Stillion: right that I took yeah I can I can I can actually do a wall, so I could chop shop, you know and do some things like that.

45
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Jason Mefford: But, for me, even then, I would I would I would overthink in my head right it’s like one to catch a child right and so i’m sitting here like trying to count the steps and everything, instead of just releasing can being in the moment right.

46
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Jason Mefford: So, so, but so maybe let’s let’s let’s talk about that a little bit what.

47
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Jason Mefford: What is dance, can I dance when I may even in my chair sitting here at work.

48
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Jen Stillion: Yes.

49
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Jen Stillion: I can.

50
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Jen Stillion: let’s allow yes.

51
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Jen Stillion: that’s The thing is that there’s these beliefs that you’re carrying about dance, because what blocks people from just moving.

52
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Jen Stillion: Their body is because they get stuck in their head, you know, telling them so whether or not getting it right or wrong, whether or not i’m a good dancer or a bad dancer.

53
00:06:53.610 –> 00:07:02.280
Jen Stillion: Again, your second your head, but when you’re you know, making a meal and you’re cooking in the kitchen you’re listening to your fun at song and also you break out and you’re moving.

54
00:07:02.670 –> 00:07:09.990
Jen Stillion: And then your partner comes in your kids coming in coming in the you know the room and they’re starting dancing you’re not thinking about whether or not you’re a good dancer.

55
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Jen Stillion: Because dancing helps you get out of your head, as we said, but it gets you into the feeling so it’s not a matter of you getting the steps right it’s how you feel.

56
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Jen Stillion: it’s getting into that you know into your body into your intuition.

57
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Jen Stillion: And when you get out of that and every single one of us listening have been there, you know when i’m talking about going back to the dance floor at a wedding or a club or in your kitchen or dancing having a dance party with your family.

58
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Jen Stillion: You don’t care like kids are the best examples, because they don’t care what anybody thinks a song comes on and they just move.

59
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Jen Stillion: You know, and you can do this in your car, you know i’ve done a lot of car dancing favorite song comes on you’re rolling down the windows are like hey and you’re totally getting into it so yeah you could dance in your chair, you can do anything you want.

60
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Jason Mefford: Because it’s it’s it’s about that it’s like you said there’s no right or wrong way to do it.

61
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Jason Mefford: yeah right.

62
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Jason Mefford: yeah and I know we just with my wife and I we just rewatch wayne’s world.

63
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Jason Mefford: And there’s a there’s a great scene in wayne’s world you know when Bohemian rhapsody come.

64
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Jason Mefford: out there in the car right and so again, I mean you can’t get up and move around, but.

65
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Jason Mefford: But their their chair dance in their car dance, and you know at that point and it’s.

66
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Jason Mefford: You know, again there’s no right way to do it it’s like no, you must you know bob’s your head three times you know forward and then to the right it’s about.

67
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Jason Mefford: You know, and this is, this is where, again, I still have stories and beliefs around dancing right and that i’m releasing right because my first wife told me, I was a bad dancer so I never danced right.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s but it’s the it’s the whole idea of freeing yourself and opening yourself up right and and I think like you said you know we worry about Am I getting it wrong.

69
00:09:01.110 –> 00:09:09.840
Jason Mefford: But when we do that we’re in our head and was the story that we’re telling herself is, oh no if I do it wrong people aren’t people are going to laugh at me.

70
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Jason Mefford: exactly right, so how did, how did people kind of get past that because I know there’s probably people that are like yeah but you know if I if I just start moving really funny everybody’s gonna look at me like i’m weird.

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Right.

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Jen Stillion: Well, this is the beautiful thing about dance is first and foremost dances the most vulnerable form of movement form of exercise because you’re showing your whole body to the world.

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Jen Stillion: And there’s a lot of stories about your body and so you’re showing yourself to everybody.

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Jen Stillion: And dance is such a it’s a huge metaphor for life, it teaches you so many lessons, just like the story that was put on you about you, being a bad dancer like.

75
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Jen Stillion: So many people have that kind of story, like, I was told I was a bad dancer I can’t move this way I look, you know, like a robot whatever it is.

76
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Jason Mefford: Sometimes you want to look like a robot.

77
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Jen Stillion: robotic moves yeah yeah or I have two left feet i’ve heard it all and that’s the thing I mean Just imagine if you.

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Jen Stillion: You know, let go of the stories and just enjoy life and not be attached to what others think about you.

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Jen Stillion: that’s why dance had it’s like I have this this motto of who you are on the dance floor is who you are in life So how do you approach the dance floor or you will a hater.

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Jen Stillion: Are you somebody who’s like the music, you know goes on and you’re the first person out there.

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Jen Stillion: You know, do you hide behind your friends you don’t want everyone to kind of see how you moved you copy everybody else, I mean it’s such I mean dance each life, it really is, if you think about it.

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Jason Mefford: that’s it’s actually it’s.

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Jason Mefford: Because again all those insecurities.

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Jason Mefford: Maybe that we have.

85
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Jason Mefford: About dance or probably insecurities that are showing up in our life.

86
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Jason Mefford: as well, right now, which, which leads me to another point right as I kind of geek out here a little bit on this probably.

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Jason Mefford: that’s what I knew that’s what I do.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, so it’s the way it’s the way it’s the way I operate right is so so if if music is kind of that metaphor for life.

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Jason Mefford: And how how we actually show up in other parts of our life right like like you and i’ve heard Jim other people that you know say things like how you do one thing you do everything.

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Right.

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Jason Mefford: shout out to the great Jim 14 for that one right.

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Jason Mefford: that’s that’s again that’s one of those two by four things to my head.

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Jason Mefford: Of ooh man that’s that’s really true right so so if if we’re afraid to show up on the dance floor then we’re probably afraid to show up in other parts of our life as well.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so that’s probably going on is probably holding us back in some way.

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Jason Mefford: You know, and whether you realize it or not, you’re being held back.

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Jason Mefford: Because of some of these beliefs right so so there’s so many people that are like yeah but you know I want to do it different in these other parts of my life, I want to, I want to be a different you know partner different you know father, mother, whatever parent.

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Right.

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Jason Mefford: But, but they have a hard time showing up there, so so does this also mean that if we show up on the dance floor differently.

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Jason Mefford: And if we’re able to release some of those stories and just be our authentic self even for a few minutes as i’m dancing around the kitchen listening to dancing Queen.

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Jen Stillion: Because I will tell you that is one of those songs that you can’t listen.

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Jason Mefford: To move right.

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Jen Stillion: yep yep.

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Jason Mefford: So if if we can do that, even for just a few minutes does that actually help us in those other parts of our life to be a better partner to be a better parent to be a better.

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Jason Mefford: You know executive leader, whatever it happens to be can some of those little practice things that we do help us in those other areas.

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Jen Stillion: Oh absolutely absolutely you know when you are on the dance floor and there’s always that girl or guy who’s often their own corner.

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Jen Stillion: And they’re doing their whole thing they were doing their whole dance thing and they’re free and they don’t give a crap what people think whether they’re a good dancer or bad it doesn’t even matter.

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Jen Stillion: But it’s always that one person that stands out and I don’t know about you, but i’ve always admired that person because they don’t give a crap what people think, and when you watch them they’re enjoy.

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Jen Stillion: And that is one of the biggest benefit when you can tap into your authentic self and get out of all your head crap get out of your way.

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Jen Stillion: And you’re moving your body and you’re totally connected to Joy, you are connected to something higher than you’re connected to your higher self.

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Jen Stillion: And you are coming home to who you really are so if you can have doses of that yeah like imagine where it’s like what’s going to be like for you to show up in your relationships and your work and your job.

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Jen Stillion: You start to really become unblocked and move those walls that have kept you trapped of being insecure and kip and really caring what people think about you that’s really the number one I think fear.

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Jen Stillion: of why people think they’re a good dancer or a bad dancer or not, why they’re not fully you know becoming unleashed on the dance floor of life.

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Jason Mefford: yeah yeah because we’re afraid of the judgment.

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Jason Mefford: Of what other people are going to say now.

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Jen Stillion: You.

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Jason Mefford: Know again it’s like the pointing thing now right we think.

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Jen Stillion: We think.

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Jason Mefford: That we’re concerned about what other people think.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s not really that we’re concerned about how we think about ourselves, based on what other people think of us right and there’s a big difference.

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Jason Mefford: Right and sometimes that’s a bitter pill to swallow.

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Jen Stillion: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: as well to realize, you know it’s that self love.

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Jason Mefford: yeah, if you will, right and and and the fact that, like you said, I mean when you are.

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Jason Mefford: Especially today, we get taught that we, we need to control things and by controlling things you’re safe, but there is no real control there isn’t, it is an illusion of control and the more that we can free ourselves.

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Jason Mefford: And like you said actually be who we are, I think that’s a great way of describing it right it’s.

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Jason Mefford: yeah it’s like i’m we’re different people in different settings right, but the more we can just be with who we really are.

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Jason Mefford: Instead of trying to filter ourselves instead of trying to impress other people are doing these other things right that’s who I am that’s who I need to be more right and so so doing these now you know again i’m sure that.

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Jason Mefford: You know, as people are going to try this or like oh that’s kind of interesting Maybe I should go out and try dancing right well, probably the first thing you’re not going to do is go down to like the exclusive.

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Jason Mefford: dance Club in Hollywood.

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Jason Mefford: and go out on the dance floor right, I mean so So what are some ways that you kind of help people incorporate this or or try it out, because for me it’s it’s one of those things it’s like just try it out right.

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Jason Mefford: what’s the worst that can happen.

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Jen Stillion: yeah and if you are somebody who you know really works on yourself, and you have a bunch of tools that you use.

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Jen Stillion: You know this is just another tool to put in your toolkit and it just takes five minutes you know your favorite songs that gets you up and move in like you said dancing Queen.

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Jen Stillion: You know, find your favorite song put it on, and if you work at home or you have a break in your day where you need to shift, this is the thing about dancing and moving your body.

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Jen Stillion: It shifts you it shifts the energy when you feel stagnant when you feel a little bit tired when you feel like you’re, especially if you are.

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Jen Stillion: You know sinking into stress and anxiety, it is a major stress reliever.

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Jen Stillion: Because thing about anxiety stress stress and anxiety is that you are being so attached to the future fears of what’s going to happen two seconds from now.

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Jen Stillion: That you forget about who you are in the moment, so this is why moving your body and just getting up putting on your headphones and just dance your heart out give yourself the permission.

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Jen Stillion: If you’ve been told you’ve been a bad dancer if you think you are a bad dancer just get over it it’s not about that you were just with yourself.

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Jen Stillion: Just dance be in the moment and just go for it and that’s how that’s what I start with when I tell people what to do, it’s a tool that people use and they feel so much better about themselves.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s one of those things that like you said it’s little I mean you can do it for one minute.

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Jason Mefford: yeah for five minutes you can do 10 minutes right and there’s.

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Jason Mefford: there’s also you know again because I I tell a lot of people because we’re we’re very sedentary.

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Jason Mefford: Now, in in in our lifestyle right, I mean I sit in this Chair for hours.

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Jason Mefford: At a time right but, but we all need to get up and move every so often and there’s there’s a reason you know, like you said it’s a hemisphere i’ll shift there’s literally by getting up and moving or doing something you end up kind of recalibrating your brain it’s like pause reset.

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Jason Mefford: And so you need to get up anyway, probably right research says that usually every 40 to 50 minutes you should get up in.

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Jason Mefford: Life a little bit.

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Jason Mefford: yep so if you’re going to get up and move a bit anyway, why not try it out.

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Jason Mefford: Right what’s the what’s the worst that could happen yep.

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Jason Mefford: You know you’ll feel a little awkward at first, so you know close your door, you know do it when nobody’s around right until you get more comfortable with it, but you know what’s the worst that could happen, but what’s the best that could happen as well right.

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Jason Mefford: And like you said I think probably everybody who is listening, has had some experience at some point in your life when you just felt free you felt that joy.

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Jason Mefford: You felt that happiness in it it’s it’s it literally is an endorphin rush and a bunch of other stuff too right but but you’ve felt that way before right and, since you felt that way before don’t you think you can feel that way again.

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Jen Stillion: yeah it’s a gift.

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Jason Mefford: it’s a gift and it’s in it’s one of the easy ways to do it right so worst case you feel a little awkward best case you just feel amazing.

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Jason Mefford: yeah for those few minutes.

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Jason Mefford: When you’re doing it.

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Jen Stillion: yeah and also, I want to say is that have you ever seen.

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Jen Stillion: Somebody who’s maybe not a great dancer but they’re so confident when they move that you just don’t even care about how they’re they’re moving because you seeing their confidence.

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Jen Stillion: you’re seeing their power and the reason why they’re powerful because they don’t care what people think they’re they’re up there dancing doing it for themselves and you’re like I want to be that person.

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Jen Stillion: And that’s what it’s about, and it is an it does open up amazing lessons, so if you’re starting to dance, and you feel awkward notice those thoughts that come in your head notice like oh my gosh i’m feeling insecure and be like take your power back and know that you’re just by yourself.

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Jason Mefford: You know matter, we can matter.

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Jen Stillion: And notice if you’ve been somebody who has been attached perfectionism attached to like i’m doing this wrong, where does that come from, and is it true is that really who you are no that’s all bullshit stories loop I swear but that’s okay.

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Jason Mefford: that’s also fun shit and whatever but yeah.

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Jen Stillion: So yeah that’s your cell bullshit.

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Jen Stillion: So it gives you the power to move through those stories and move to the stuff that is was put on you that’s not even yours.

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Jason Mefford: that’s yeah that’s that’s what happens so much of the time right it gets put.

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Jason Mefford: on us.

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Jason Mefford: Totally and then we choose to accept her right so just again like I accepted what my ex wife had said to me.

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Jason Mefford: She said, this would have been like.

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Jason Mefford: 2530 years ago.

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Jen Stillion: Right, I feel.

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Jason Mefford: And it stays it stays with me but but it only stays with me because I chose.

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Jen Stillion: You allow it.

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Jason Mefford: To allow it, and to believe it right and so again it’s like i’m a great dancer right i’m a great dancer I mean I can affirm yourself into it as well, too, but it just just just get up but actually do it right because again it’s it’s the.

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Jason Mefford: You know it’s interesting because we talked about past present future right and part of this is to try to get us into the present.

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Jason Mefford: Because when you think about linear times like that.

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Jason Mefford: We can only be in one linear time at a time right so right now i’m in the present talking with you right my mind, is not going to what am I going to eat for lunch I don’t care i’m right here i’m talking to you right.

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Jason Mefford: So we can only be in one of those linear times.

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Jason Mefford: it’s the same thing when you think about you know if you’re one of those people that’s getting stuck in your head and you want to get out of your head.

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Jason Mefford: Well guess what there’s three areas of your body that you can be in as well, your head your heart and your gut So if you don’t want to be in your head anymore.

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Jason Mefford: feel with your heart or move with your gut and your body and dance is one of those perfect ways, and I think dances is great because it’s both feeling.

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Jason Mefford: mm hmm and doing.

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Jason Mefford: As well right.

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Jen Stillion: yeah exactly and it can go, I mean it goes deep you know it can heal those past traumas or messages that were put on you.

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Jen Stillion: It does so much healing when you’re in the moment and you’re moving and you’re letting go.

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Jen Stillion: you’re just you soon discover that you are moving into self acceptance you’re accepting you for you and you’re accepting your body.

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Jen Stillion: And you know that is something that’s been separated, because a lot of people are like I said it’s a very vulnerable thing because people don’t want.

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Jen Stillion: To be judged on the way they look and how they’re moving their body, and you know your whole in our society We grew up with, like you, are validated on the way you look I know for women, specifically.

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Jen Stillion: So you know when you’re out with a group of people and you’re moving this is why a lot of people have to have a few cocktails before they get on the.

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Jen Stillion: floor yeah because they want to not think about these things they don’t want to feel judged, they want to have that that head that stuff in their head to be removed and be numbed out so they can be free.

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Jen Stillion: So this is, this is the beautiful thing about moving is that they’re like I said there’s some lessons and it gets deeper and it gets into your spirit and it gets into your soul.

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Jen Stillion: And this is why centuries ago there were a tribal dances and there was this is dance was a way of life and use it was a way of life, because it does something to your soul you’re connecting with who you are like on a deep level so.

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Jason Mefford: I think I think that’s one of those things that we’ve lost in our current society.

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Jason Mefford: yeah one of the reasons why I love talking about this kind of stuff because you know again it’s like sometimes we think we’re smarter than people that lived a long time ago.

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Jen Stillion: mm hmm.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I will tell you folks we are stupider.

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Jason Mefford: than than people that live.

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Jason Mefford: You know, a long time ago, because.

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Jason Mefford: You know, again it’s it’s like I get a lot of people that feel like well.

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Jason Mefford: You know now we have the data now we can.

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Jason Mefford: You know, make all these scientific and mathematical calculations and we can determine blah blah blah blah blah right and I don’t need instinct anymore, and never go with your gut I mean I hear people say this all the time and i’m.

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Jason Mefford: You know i’m sitting there thinking so you want to throw out millions of years of human evolution that has got us to this point.

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Jen Stillion: yeah all the wisdom.

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Jason Mefford: All the Wilson.

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Jason Mefford: them all, all of all of the growth and the other thing because again history leaves clues right.

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Jason Mefford: And so again like you said every society has had music and dance incorporated and that has been a very integral part.

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Jason Mefford: Of the society, it allows us to tap into ourselves to become you know, to remember who we are.

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Jason Mefford: To be our authentic self and and so again, this is just one of those tools for you to be able to do it don’t don’t throw out.

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Jason Mefford: Right what all of these past generations for millions of years have been trying to teach us and program into our body yeah let’s just keep using some of those same tools.

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Jen Stillion: yeah yeah if meditation is mainstream and yoga is mainstream everyone’s flocking to yoga meditation subconscious reprogramming eft tapping like these are tools journaling This is just another powerful tool that a lot of people overlook i’m like it’s in you, your body.

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Jen Stillion: Your body is designed to move.

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Jen Stillion: And if you’re not if you’re somebody who does not like to go running and different forms of exercise, you have this this is free it’s free dancin.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s great exercise.

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Jason Mefford: I mean so so you know you can sit there and say well i’m gonna i’m gonna go walk or i’m going to go run for a little while.

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Jason Mefford: Well, you try dancing hard for 30 minutes you’re going to get a way better Cardio you know exercise out of it and doing some of these other things, so you know it might not be right for you.

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Jason Mefford: But it might be exactly right.

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Jason Mefford: For you as well, like you said you just got lots of different tools it’s something that’s easy its quick I do a little chair dance stuff every so often.

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Jen Stillion: yeah shoulders me.

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Jason Mefford: let’s go.

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Jason Mefford: Right.

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Jason Mefford: Because i’m a great dancer.

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Jason Mefford: Because that’s the story that i’m going to that i’m going to start programming to myself as well.

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Jen Stillion: and

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Jason Mefford: You know, because i’ve been listening to music a lot and trying to i’ve been practicing actually feeling the music right, so we can listen to music.

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Jen Stillion: I feel it.

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Jason Mefford: But we can also feel music and there’s a difference right now i’m going to start incorporating some more movement.

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Jason Mefford: So even if even if you have a fear of dance call it movement or whatever else.

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Jen Stillion: However, I usually call it moving because it’s a trigger word for some people i’m like well, and you know when I do.

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Jen Stillion: Live events, and you know in front of a few hundred people and they don’t know that i’m going to get them up and moving, for the first thing oh my gosh you see half the people like a deer in headlights and the new have the half they’re like.

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Jason Mefford: let’s go yeah.

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Jen Stillion: What do we do, and then after like two or three minutes everyone’s all into it, you know they’re like oh my you know I use fun favorite pop songs they know their song and they get up and i’m like just let go I really move them quickly.

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Jen Stillion: Because when we dance after five or six minutes and they sit down everyone’s shifted and everyone’s like oh my God i’m excited for this presentation and then I weave in dance throughout the presentation, but.

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Jen Stillion: that’s the power of it is just it’s it’s remarkable and yeah like and The thing is, if you’re not if you’re totally against this, this is what I suggest.

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Jen Stillion: Go for a walk but put on your favorite music pumping pay playlist go for a walk you’re still going to start to feel it in your body.

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Jen Stillion: And you’re not going to you’re going to be like on the sidewalk walking out in public and all of a sudden you’re going to bust out and to some kind of move because you can’t help it.

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Jen Stillion: So I start there you know to just to get you out of your head least you’re incorporating some kind of movement with some music that you love and then that’s how it begins.

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Jason Mefford: Like you said, because you can just start incorporating it into.

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Jason Mefford: yeah what you’re already doing.

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Jason Mefford: yeah right and it’s it’s only a couple minutes try it out try it out for 30 days right see if it works for you, but you know again if you if you don’t try it you’re never going to know.

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Jason Mefford: Why, but you might try it and again experience that joy, you know and as you were talking about that, even with the exercise, because I remember, I used to when I was running more frequently, I used to have a playlist and one of the songs that would come on was led zeppelin’s cashmere.

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Jason Mefford: there’s a there’s a there’s a base beat to that last like oh.

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Jason Mefford: right that would that would help me kind of you know, get excited and pumping and my my feet would actually hit the ground.

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Jason Mefford: Was beats why.

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Jason Mefford: And that’s what you’re talking about so even even that it’s not dance but it’s it’s movement with music, which does the same thing.

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Jen Stillion: yeah I mean there’s extraordinary amount of of benefits and it raises your vibration.

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Jen Stillion: so high that at that level what I teach women, as you can start manifesting and creating the things that you want.

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Jen Stillion: So when you’re in that state and you’re thinking about how you want your data unfold to how you want your week to unfold to what you want to create today or this week or this month or this year.

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Jen Stillion: You can start seeing your goals and your visions and your dreams because you’re on that high state and you’re feeling so good it’s like that’s an a window for you to be like.

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Jen Stillion: I can use this and start saying some positive things like I am I think a powerful affirmation that i’ve used with my clients, is, I am a confident answer, because if you say you’re a great dancer it’s great but being attached to what it what is a great dancer is different for everybody.

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Jen Stillion: But just feeling confident in your body, you see yourself show up as confident in every area of your life.

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Jen Stillion: And being confident to move your feet, to create the things that you want to bring into your life, do you see how i’m how dance just opens up all these lessons and all these benefits it’s crazy.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it does, and that you know behavior.

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Jason Mefford: or way of being of being confident is one of those habits that when you develop it makes all the difference right because, again, think about if you do something feeling confident versus doing something when you don’t feel so confident.

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Jason Mefford: Is there a difference in the result.

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Jason Mefford: Of course there is right and again just like Jen said, you know you can you can get up in the morning.

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Jason Mefford: and think about this because, again, everybody you’ve you’ve got through this right is you get up you get up some mornings and you’re like oh i’m so tired I can’t believe I have to do this.

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Jason Mefford: Right so so you’re down in that lower emotional spectrum.

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Jason Mefford: vibrational area.

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Jason Mefford: How do you think your day is going to go well, most of the time when you get up and you start your day that way it ends up being a shitty day.

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Right.

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Jason Mefford: What is what’s different if you get up in the morning you’re excited you’re happy you felt some of that joy, you get up you do a little dance in the morning you’re feeling really great and then you think about or set an intention for your day.

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Jason Mefford: How did your day go then.

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Jason Mefford: yeah much different right.

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Jason Mefford: yeah, so why not why why allow circumstance and the self doubt and and and the overthinking to be what rules your life is that really what you want, or do you want something that you are in control of or you’re feeling more confident and you’re getting the results that you want.

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Jason Mefford: it’s up to you it’s just a little shift right.

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Jen Stillion: It is, and the one of the most just listening to what I want to say about overthinking specifically overthinking and self doubt you know when you are stuck in that.

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Jen Stillion: What you’re really saying to yourself, and you don’t trust yourself so trust comes from listening to your instinct listening to your intuition.

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Jen Stillion: and your soul your soul more powerful than you think you are and you’ve been trained, because I was somebody who was so attached to self doubt.

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Jen Stillion: I kept doubting of what I can create in this life I could doubting my power doubting who I was, and I was so attached to that I lived in that place because it was comfortable.

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Jen Stillion: Because I knew if I started to trust myself and get out of that my head and into my heart, I would have to move through the uncomfortableness move through the stuff that I know I needed to do to get me to the place where I was out of my head.

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Jen Stillion: living in your head it’s costing you so much, and so, when you learn to trust yourself, that is how you become.

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Jen Stillion: Your power for self, that is, that is how you remember who you are when you came to this planet.

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Jen Stillion: And through movement through tools through working on yourself.

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Jen Stillion: opens that up for you so that’s like the bottom line that I learned from experience is learning when you’re dancing and getting out of your head.

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Jen Stillion: you’re learning to trust yourself, because when you’re moving your body there’s no choreography putting up put on you.

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Jen Stillion: You were just trusting whatever movements come through you you’re just you’re just being guided.

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Jen Stillion: You don’t know what you’re going to do with your hands you just go with it it’s totally based on how you feel its motion its energy in motion it’s a mindfulness technique and so that’s, that is what trust is and that’s what trust taught me is through dancing yeah.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well Jen.

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Jason Mefford: Do you yes.

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Jason Mefford: Oh, this is, this is, you know it again, I mean it’s it’s that’s why I wanted you to you know Come on, and talk because hey everybody I needed to hear this too okay so.

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Jason Mefford: So thank you Jen you’re welcome.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s but it’s you know again it’s just another tool in the toolbox try it out.

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Jason Mefford: It might not be for you, but it might be exactly the thing that you need.

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Jason Mefford: right because because again do do you want to feel more confident i’m guessing so.

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Jason Mefford: Most people that I talked to.

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Jason Mefford: that’s the that’s one of the things that they really struggle with is they want to feel more confident, so why not try it out.

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Jason Mefford: dance a little bit in your office in your car when nobody’s looking at first just trust yourself allow the movements to come through you.

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Jason Mefford: Allow your instinct and intuition, to take over, because you know i’ll second what you just said Jen when we when we stay in our head, we are very constricted in our views right.

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Jason Mefford: And we just stay trapped there.

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Jason Mefford: And I see so many people that say stay trapped in their life because they stay trapped in their head.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s the point when you finally move out by using some of these different mindfulness techniques or other things like that to get you out of your head that’s when the transformation happens that’s when you connect back to your authentic self.

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Jason Mefford: Right that’s another term that a lot of people throw out there is authentic well be authentic with yourself, by using some of these things and you’re going to be amazed at what comes through, because I think like you said Jen we are much more powerful than we realize, and when we remember.

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Jason Mefford: Your power returns.

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Jason Mefford: So.

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Jen Stillion: that’s magical.

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Jason Mefford: It is magical it is magical.

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Jason Mefford: Well, Jan anything any final thoughts before we cut out and let everybody get back to their their day.

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Jen Stillion: No, I just like you said try it out just allow it don’t allow the excuses if I don’t have enough time.

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Jen Stillion: You do have the time it’s not even about time it’s about you just committing to this just start with five minutes a day you know incorporate it with your daily life.

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Jen Stillion: You know, take a break from being behind the desk do it in the car and just notice the shift and notice what’s come through you, and just have fun.

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Jason Mefford: and have fun with it and be committed with it.

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Jason Mefford: You know, be committed for 30 days at least try just just do a little bit whatever you’re going to do for 30 days, but I promise you, if you are consistent at the end of the 30 days, you will see a difference in your life.

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Jason Mefford: yeah okay i’ve seen it other people that i’ve worked with have seen it Jen you’ve seen it people you work with have seen it too right.

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Jason Mefford: So, again don’t don’t do this half ass.

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Jason Mefford: don’t just go on and try it once or twice right actually be committed to it be committed to do it for 30 days.

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Jason Mefford: But you will see a difference.

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Jen Stillion: yep absolutely.

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Jason Mefford: You will see a difference so Jen Thank you my friend, you know people want to reach out to you how, how is the best way for people to reach out to you if they want a one to one no more.

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Jen Stillion: My instagram I live on the grams so.

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Jason Mefford: Jen on instagram.

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Jen Stillion: Yes, at Jen stiliyan it’s like a million with STI in front of it so yeah that’s where you can find me.

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Jason Mefford: All right here on the grams you’re on the grams.

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Jason Mefford: Alright well thanks again Jim like I said it’s um I needed to hear it, and I know there’s lots of people listening that needed to hear this exact message to when they’re hearing it as well, so.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you, thank you, thank.

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Jen Stillion: You for having me.

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Jason Mefford: Thank you.