In case you missed it, there has been a lot of change in how organizations are dealing with #compliance. Risk management concepts, use of data, using compliance to lead to greater business efficiency, third-party risk, just to name a few.

It’s as if compliance has gotten a face lift recently and looks a whole lot more like a risk function adding value instead of just a cost of doing business.

I’m joined by Tom Fox to discuss some of the recent changes and how he has incorporated the “nuts and bolts” needed to operationalize compliance in your organization in his updated “The Compliance Handbook, 2nd Edition” where he shares practical tips like 31 days to a more effective compliance function.

As usual, we don’t just jam about compliance and #risk, but also music and some career advice you won’t want to miss.

Save 20% on Tom’s new book when you use this link: https://lexisnexis.com/fox20

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

Transcript

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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jay said hey today I have my friend Tom fox with me and we’re going to talk a little bit about compliance.

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Jason Mefford: Because he just came out with a new book that compliance handbooks second edition.

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Jason Mefford: And so you know, again, even if you’re not in compliance you’re going to want to stick around because Tom has been in this industry, for a long time.

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Jason Mefford: And you never know what’s going to come out on one of these episodes anyway so whatever you do stick around and listen to the entire episode and let’s roll that episode.

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Jason Mefford: hey Tom how you doing today man.

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Thomas Fox: it’s good to have you back on great.

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Thomas Fox: yeah and to be with you.

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Jason Mefford: I know you know you have you have been in this space for a long time.

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Jason Mefford: And and have have this compliance handbook out for quite a while right so so I guess, one of the questions, just like right off is.

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Jason Mefford: Why did you why did you take, like the compliance Bible that you already had and kind of create a second edition what’s what’s new or why did you go through and do this.

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Thomas Fox: Sure Jason so the original compliance handbook came out in late spring of 2018 and then in 2019 and 2020.

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Thomas Fox: We had some significant releases of information from the Department of Justice in 2019 we had the original evaluation of corporate compliance programs.

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Thomas Fox: which was updating the 2017 version, then we had the Department of Justice and I trust division come out with their evaluation of corporate compliance programs which added some really interesting.

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Thomas Fox: They were and I trust factors, but I thought applicable to and a corruption compliance as well.

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Thomas Fox: And, of course, under the antitrust law, you have both civil and criminal jurisdiction, so they focused on that a little bit more.

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Thomas Fox: We also had ofac come out with their version of a best practice compliance program once again with a little bit different focus, because it was trade compliance, so we had.

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Thomas Fox: Some significant information come out from Department of Justice and ofac and in in June of 2020.

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Thomas Fox: The Department of Justice updated their evaluation of corporate compliance programs and really changed the focus in a couple of key couple of ways, I thought needed to be highlighted.

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Thomas Fox: And then on July 1 I think 2020 the Department of Justice and Securities and Exchange Commission jointly came out with their update.

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Thomas Fox: To the fcp a resource guide, which was originally released in 2012 which, in my opinion, this is the single best resource guide for all things F CPA not simply compliance and so that I thought wanted.

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Thomas Fox: An update and I went through and rewrote about 40% of the book so there’s a lot of new information in there, it incorporates the most.

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Thomas Fox: Significant changes from the Department of Justice SEC ofac perspective and a lot of new information for the compliance practitioner as well.

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Jason Mefford: Well, I know cuz you know living here in the US, you know, because a lot of people that listen might be international, but we have some crazy compliance rules here in the US right, I mean we’re probably i’m guessing probably about the most.

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Jason Mefford: Controlled compliant regulated.

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Jason Mefford: country in the world right, and so, and a lot of these ones that you just throw out there are some some big names heavy hitters you know when the SEC comes down and they start calling.

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Jason Mefford: You got to pay attention right and I remember, because you mentioned F CPA and some of the some of the updates because I remember you know back in the day.

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Jason Mefford: The Federal Government pretty much said Look, we expect everybody to have good ethics and compliance programs or we’re not we’re going to really tell you what it is right it’s like wink wink.

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Jason Mefford: We know it when we see it, and if you’re not doing it then we’re going to be chopped right, and then I think there were some memos that kind of came out of the SEC if i’m remembering right.

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Jason Mefford: They kind of gave a little bit of guidelines that’s where like those those seven.

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Jason Mefford: Things that you usually think about where we’re kind of came from right but there’s there’s been this evolution, slowly but it sounds like from what you’re talking about.

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Jason Mefford: The last couple of years there’s been a lot more guidance actually coming out of the government of what they’re expecting.

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Thomas Fox: right starting in about 2015 we started hearing this is probably be music to your ears, but much more emphasis on data data analytics and use of data and your compliance Program.

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Thomas Fox: So obviously i’m a lawyer and data was not something we learned about in law school, not that was antithetical to the practice of law, but it was not something we focused on so.

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Thomas Fox: When you couple the Cosa 2013 internal controls framework with the DOJ emphasis on data, which was really emphasized in the.

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Thomas Fox: update, we saw the DOJ say specifically ctos had to have access to all corporate data, but more importantly, how to use that tab you had to analyze that data.

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Thomas Fox: You have to have continuous monitoring and continuous improvement, so this was really the most specific week heard the DOJ so they’ve been talking about that and speeches and.

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Thomas Fox: Other things over the past three or four years, but we saw a real acceleration with the update and now I think that’s probably the biggest driver.

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Thomas Fox: In compliance innovation right now is how can you get a handle on your data, how do you find out what data, you have, then, how do you analyze it.

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Thomas Fox: And then how can you incorporate that into a compliance program for continuous improvement, so those.

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Thomas Fox: that’s what’s really driving compliance now and it’s been interesting to see that evolution, but it certainly picked up during the pandemic and probably.

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Thomas Fox: i’m sure the coincidence of the June one release date of the update to the evaluation was coincidental nevertheless when it came out it really got a lot of people’s attention and data is something that is probably the most one of the most ubiquitous terms in compliance now.

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Jason Mefford: Well, it is it’s it’s funny because as you’re talking, you know because i’ve always usually kind of held you know risk and compliance is to kind of separate things but it’s.

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Jason Mefford: It seems like from what you’re talking about that there is more of this confluence now of this right is he is I mean we see this from.

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Jason Mefford: The ISO 31,000 standard on risk management right they came out with it, they updated it a couple years, I think it was a 18 or 19 they updated that.

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Jason Mefford: And so, now has been incorporating those concepts those risk management concepts into their other standards as they’re updating them.

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Jason Mefford: And so now it’s almost like the government has come back and said hey everybody compliance by itself right let’s start incorporating some of these risk management things you know, like you said it’s got to be continuous.

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Jason Mefford: it’s got to be you know have it, have an improvement, because as you’re going through as you’re looking at it and hey, by the way, everybody has data, so you guys should be able to start telling.

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Jason Mefford: Whether you’re compliant or not right, you should start kind of self monitoring, that is, that is, that kind of what i’m hearing what what’s coming out.

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Thomas Fox: No you’re absolutely spot on and one of the things I saw the last year with the pandemic was the acceleration of trends that have been percolating in.

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Thomas Fox: 2017 2018 and 2019 to accelerate X exponentially and coupled with the fact with certainly from the legal.

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Thomas Fox: kind of compliance perspective, the traditional way you would look at issues is go to an investigation, you might do an interview.

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Thomas Fox: You might sit down and talk to some people, you might review documents all that kind of all went out the window last year and really the only thing left was data, and so it forced people like myself who perhaps not use data primarily as the source for continuous monitoring or numbers.

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Thomas Fox: To really embrace that because we had to, and now that we’ve had to I think it’s a much more efficient way much certainly much more holistic way into your first point, I think you’re also spot on that we’ve had this much more or greater recognition that this is just risk.

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Thomas Fox: We had pandemic risk last year now we’ve got returned to work risk and got supply chain risk we got.

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Thomas Fox: Third party risk we have cyber cyber security risk we have data privacy risk, and of course we have.

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Thomas Fox: You know the social justice and diversity inclusion movements that gained speed last year, so you have a reputational risk, how are you going to look at those all and it has to be really a holistic integrated approach.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s interesting because, even when you think about you know risk in general right.

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Jason Mefford: Why does the government come out with new laws with new regulations, because the government is trying to manage some risk.

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Jason Mefford: Right of businesses may be operating in a way that they don’t like right that ends up often having a very detrimental impact to the economy to two individuals right as well, and so they’re trying to manage kind of like the business environment within the country by putting these.

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Jason Mefford: i’ll use the word controls right because everybody likes the word controls, but really a regulation is trying to force organizations to operate in a certain way.

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Jason Mefford: To reduce that general public risk right and like you said, I think the pandemic is just really accelerated a lot of stuff that was already happening anyway.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s it’s interesting you know, like you said that that now they’re focusing much more on data.

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Jason Mefford: And you know, in a way, because organization should kind of know what’s going on, they should be tracking what’s going on and, as things change, they should be trying to get out in front of it, you know whether that’s compliance or just risk in general right.

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Jason Mefford: So, yes it’s kind of interesting and I know you said you know about 40% of the book has been updated so i’m guessing a lot of these this data concept is brought into it, or what are what are kind of the main updates that you’ve done since the first edition.

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Thomas Fox: So the main updates for around data they were around innovation, they were around managing managing your third parties, because in the compliance world third parties are still viewed as as the highest risk and once again with the monitoring and updating.

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Thomas Fox: In the.

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Thomas Fox: first evaluation that came out in 2019 there was discussion to have root cause analysis.

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Thomas Fox: And that was eventually added as an additional hallmark to the original 10 hallmarks of effective compliance program so there’s a discussion of how a root cause analysis is really different.

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Thomas Fox: than a investigation or an interview even two different focus with a different goals and why that’s important the joint ventures which.

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Thomas Fox: Whatever the business venture in it is and the types of business venture are only limited by our collective business imaginations whether it’s a jv a teaming agreement or anything else.

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Thomas Fox: had to figure out how to manage those but the other thing that’s that really I saw in in the bigger picture Jason was the move the moves that are being made.

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Thomas Fox: are really leading to greater business efficiency and so originally compliance programs were written policies and procedures, written by lawyers for lawyers.

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Thomas Fox: The Kosovo framework of 2013 for internal controls was for a lot of people, including myself, just a revelation.

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Thomas Fox: Because I now saw the controls is the backbone of the compliance program and that led to key performance integral integral.

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Thomas Fox: indicators with a lot of ways to measure efficiency in ways that I certainly hadn’t been aware of before and so that gave us this data.

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Thomas Fox: And if you can improve your business efficiency, while making your compliance program more effective, I think that equates to read a return on investment, we had a lot of that going on.

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Thomas Fox: And I think that’s one of the big accelerants we saw from from last year as well if you’re going to look at your.

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Thomas Fox: Spending your gift traveling and your payment spend and determine that it’s inefficient for the sales cycle for the sales process.

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Thomas Fox: And you can reduce your spend to give travel entertainment spend to government officials you’ve saved money you’ve made your process more efficient you’re more compliant and you’re probably going to get a better Roi from that sales team focusing on those customers.

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Jason Mefford: Well, so this is it’s going in an interesting way because you know, like if we think about.

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Jason Mefford: Like I said it looks like compliance now is taking on more of kind of these risk management principles right which one of them that ISO talks about is that.

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Jason Mefford: Risk Management adds value to the organization right, so that you shouldn’t be spending more on managing risk than the benefit that you’re getting.

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Jason Mefford: And I know for a long time it’s always been all compliance is just something we got to do it’s money we got to spend we hate doing it, but we got to do it right.

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Jason Mefford: To where now, it sounds like it’s it’s also having more of that value discussion and about ways to lead to these greater business efficiencies that compliance just isn’t about.

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Jason Mefford: Following that regulation but it’s also like you said it’s those controls in the background that are helping us actually run a better business as well right because a lot of times.

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Jason Mefford: yeah.

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Thomas Fox: Let me pick up on that last point, because that’s really critical.

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Thomas Fox: 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe three years ago when certainly I thought about the management of risk, it was to protect the company, but my thinking of all, because if you properly manage risk it’s actually a business advantage.

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Thomas Fox: If you can respond more quickly, because you have the controls in place.

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Thomas Fox: To accept greater risk because you already have the controls in place to manage that risk.

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Thomas Fox: With oversight with controls and the human element, it can make your business more nimble more agile.

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Thomas Fox: And that’s I think one of the things we saw last year companies were able to pivot much more quickly when they could manage that risk.

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Thomas Fox: Here was you know early on in the pandemic a school of thought that well we’ll just override these controls or we won’t follow these controls, because it’s a unique situation.

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Thomas Fox: The companies that already had the controls in place and could just have greater.

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Thomas Fox: Risk Management oversight were able to more quickly respond, and I think that played out for a lot of different industries in the past year, so i’m really seeing that risk management.

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Thomas Fox: now being thought of as a business advantage because you can respond more quickly, and one thing i’ve learned over the years is, the greater the risk, the greater potential profits and if you can figure out a way to manage great nervously neighbor you’re going to make.

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Thomas Fox: More money and so.

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Thomas Fox: I think we’ve seen a lot of that as well.

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Jason Mefford: Well, because that’s that’s one of the things and i’ll use the you know ISO 31,000 risk management, because one of their risk response things I talked about is increased the risk.

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Jason Mefford: And I know when people read that they’re like what do you what what, no, no, no here we’re for value preservation right we’re but but it’s that point again of but those companies who can.

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Jason Mefford: Who, who have the processes and the controls in place, they can take more risk intelligently.

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Jason Mefford: And they can actually increase the risk and still have a higher reward right and so those are the ones that are going to end up winning more.

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Jason Mefford: But it’s but it’s interesting because this this dialogue that we’re having kind of It reminded me of a lecture I sat through when I was doing my MBA many years ago.

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Jason Mefford: And this was before all of the environmental, you know now everybody’s like Oh, he s G s G s G right.

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Jason Mefford: This was before all the environmental push had happened, and I remember that this professor, she would she was a very you know left wing environmentally friendly person and so she was.

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Jason Mefford: You know kind of talking about the benefits of being an environmentally friendly company.

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Jason Mefford: And you know, most of us in the audience for like, but this just costs more money, it costs more money right we can’t it’s it’s reducing profits and she stopped, and I remember saying something like.

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Jason Mefford: Why do you think that this just costs more money can’t it also be an advantage for the organization.

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Jason Mefford: And then I remember at that time you know a lot of us were still kind of thinking, she was a little crazy.

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Jason Mefford: But it wasn’t but a couple of years, you know, and all of a sudden, we had these huge companies like walmart going.

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Jason Mefford: holy crap if I read you know if I switch out all of the lights in my store to you know compact fluorescent instead.

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Jason Mefford: it’s not only good for the environment but i’m i’m spending like 40% less in energy costs holy crap right, so the minute that they decided that.

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Jason Mefford: There was huge investment and huge push but it took that mindset shift and it just sounds like we’re starting to have some of that mindset shift now.

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Jason Mefford: In the compliance area as well it’s not just a cost of doing business but it’s it’s an investment in in doing good business right.

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Thomas Fox: Your spa when when companies talk about we’re going to reduce our carbon footprint, I immediately here how much is that going to save us.

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Thomas Fox: isn’t going to be environmentally friendly, yes, help our stock price, maybe, but we will have absolutely save money.

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Jason Mefford: yeah.

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Jason Mefford: So it’s interesting that we’re kind of kind of coming that way now, I know I think you know the the compliance handbook I think you.

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Jason Mefford: You published through lexis nexis right and if i’m remembering that right, so why you know lexis nexis I always I always thought that was a great term I just love that.

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Jason Mefford: The alliteration of it too right but but maybe you know just just talk for a minute what what is lexis nexis, why did you choose them as somebody to publish the compliance handbook through.

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Thomas Fox: So lets us nexus is the world’s largest legal publisher and about May of last year I got an email from them telling me that they were going to start a.

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Thomas Fox: Compliance adjunct to their legal publications and they wanted me to come on board as a first compliance also author.

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Thomas Fox: And so I sat down with them, or I guess virtually sat down with them, because it was in May.

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Thomas Fox: and your work on a contract and I was at i’m absolutely thrilled to be a part of lexis nexis because they literally are the world’s largest legal publisher they want to start coming out with a compliance series.

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Thomas Fox: And they they focus on the nuts and bolts, how do you do it in you name the area and so that’s exactly what the compliance handbook is.

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Thomas Fox: The best nuts and bolts book, in my opinion, and doing a best practice compliance program so I work with them, I had they came in and took over the editing role for my wife so she was thrilled.

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Jason Mefford: She was happy happy wife happy man right So there you go.

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Thomas Fox: So that worked out well and i’m going they took over the publication, it was released it’s available in their bookstore for immediate release now.

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Jason Mefford: wow well.

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Thomas Fox: They were a pleasure to work with, I never worked with a professional editor before so obviously I bring a certain perspective to the process they’re renewing very different perspective, a non legal perspective so when they would email me and say this doesn’t make sense.

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Thomas Fox: They were right may not make sense to someone without my professional background and that meant it didn’t make sense to potential reader so I really learned a lot from that process and enjoyed that process.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and the nuts and bolts, I think, is what’s important because it’s so i’m glad that that’s kind of the approach of this has, and that it is.

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Jason Mefford: Like that one place where.

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Jason Mefford: People can go to actually get down to that level because so much of the time you know it’s.

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Jason Mefford: People people talk and theories and Oh, this is the nice to do kind of thing right but it, but it leaves the people who are the practitioner.

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Jason Mefford: That has to actually execute going yeah but what am I supposed to do right, so they get some big lofty goal, or they get some theoretical thing pushed at them.

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Jason Mefford: But at the end of the day, they still have to execute they still have to figure out how to make this work, and so it sounds like you know, in the second edition that you’re giving a more of the here’s how you would actually implement this test your company kind of step by step.

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Thomas Fox: Absolutely so Chapter one actually is 31 days to a more effective compliance program where I.

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Thomas Fox: Literally in 31 different entries talk about how you can improve your compliance program with one or two things each day and then each entry.

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Thomas Fox: has three key takeaways and each one of those takeaways are things you can do it a little or no cost to.

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Thomas Fox: Make your compliance more coupons per plant program more effective that day I keep that same format throughout the book in terms of.

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Thomas Fox: Every chapter every entry has three key takeaways a long time ago, I heard there’s a lot of things you can learn in the law there’s a whole lot less that you actually need to know, so I tried to give.

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Thomas Fox: The compliance practitioner that same approach you can know a lot more, but here’s the things you need to know and here’s three things you can do today to make your compliance program more effective and i’ve had.

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Thomas Fox: Several readers of the first book tell me that that’s exactly how they used it they read it.

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Thomas Fox: it’s very biblical 12 chapters, so you can read it is either the 12 tribes or 12 months, and you can read a chapter A month and with an entry each day.

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Thomas Fox: that’s a 750 to 800 words and with three key takeaways the things you can do that day to incorporate into your compliance program it’s designed for.

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Thomas Fox: liberty, the company that doesn’t have a compliance program all the way up to the amazons of the world, you want to use it to enhance or upgrade their program as well.

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Jason Mefford: Well it’s good, because I know you know when I talked to a lot of compliance people, the one thing that I hear often is.

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Jason Mefford: i’m overwhelmed right there’s so much to do, I mean so again, if you take even a midsize company here in the US, the amount.

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Jason Mefford: of compliance that we have to do is pretty overwhelming.

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Jason Mefford: Right and, and so I like that approach to have look just just take it a little bit at a time right it’s like the big elephant, you need a little bit each day.

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Jason Mefford: read a chapter once a month, you know do this one little thing each day and you’re going to get closer and closer right because.

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Jason Mefford: Like I said I I hear that, from a lot of people and I I usually tell them look just.

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Jason Mefford: focus on what’s most important right in front of you at the time right because they might come to me and say i’ve got 20 different things, I have to you know regulations, I have to follow which one do I do, how do I do them all, at the same time.

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Jason Mefford: Well, you can’t do all of them at the same time right, and again I mean you’ve got more experience from from the regulator’s side, but what I tell people so fact.

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Jason Mefford: check me on this too, because if i’m wrong, let me know but I usually tell them look, you know the regulators are more interested in the fact that you’re trying and you’re working towards that, then that necessarily everything.

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Thomas Fox: Is button down.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, they wanted all that way but they’re going to give you some credit for the try factor right.

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Jason Mefford: am I saying that right to people okay.

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Thomas Fox: you’re saying that right people.

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Thomas Fox: With a couple of caveats.

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Thomas Fox: yeah number one that process has to be documented.

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Thomas Fox: And anyone who’s ever heard he speaks it knows that I continually say the three most important things in any compliance program are the following.

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Thomas Fox: document document document whatever you do document and that way of a regulator comes knocking you can do that you as a compliance professional can do exactly what you Jason just suggested.

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Thomas Fox: here’s my problem here’s how i’m remedying it and here’s the steps i’m taking here’s the steps i’m going to take.

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Thomas Fox: And that really mirrors what the Department of Justice said in the update the June 2020 updating, a violation of corporate compliance programs which It all starts with a risk assessment.

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Thomas Fox: But then, after you assess your risk and put in a program to manage that risk, you have to monitor that program and that’s continuous monitoring and that’s what leads to continuous improvement.

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Thomas Fox: That was the first time they really linked the risk assessment to continuous monitoring but it’s a it’s a much more formal way of saying what you just said he was our problem here’s i’m going to fix it and here’s the steps, I have taken it will take if it’s document.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so you got to make make sure and document because that’s that’s the thing too, I mean I know we you know we both did some work with outside for quite a while, too, and I remember.

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Jason Mefford: You know, I think that one of the definitions are paraphrasing but you know compliance is about documenting and proving.

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Jason Mefford: That you actually complied with the requirements, so there has to be that documentation side of it.

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Jason Mefford: Because again if somebody comes in and asking and you’re like well you know yeah we did that well, can you can you prove it to me, can you show it to me.

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Jason Mefford: And I think you know again that’s probably one of the reasons why now data.

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Jason Mefford: is so important, again, because the data shows or proves that you did it as well right and that you are monitoring it and that you are.

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Jason Mefford: addressing issues when things come up right it’s it’s one way to actually document and prove stuff and ties a lot better into the risk assessment, which again is interesting and that’s that’s.

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Jason Mefford: it’s it sounds like this is the approach that you’re suggesting to people to is look assess what’s most important focus on those areas first.

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Jason Mefford: And then start filling in, as you can right so again it’s more of that risk management concepts being brought to compliance instead of trying to do everything right away what’s most important and start working start working through that.

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Thomas Fox: And there’s even a career development reason to do it and I took this from a friend of mine who told me that every day on back when we had daily desk calendars.

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Jason Mefford: Writing those yeah.

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Thomas Fox: yeah he would write 123 things he had done that day to enhance his compliance program and he did it for two reasons, one was well three one, so we had a record he could recall.

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Thomas Fox: To have a regular came knocking he had a note which he could then show the regular see I wrote this down on July 7.

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Thomas Fox: But equally importantly, when he went in for annual salary negotiations, he had a record of everything he had done.

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Thomas Fox: And he would use that in salary negotiations, each year, so, and no one can ever say it work and been insufficient because he had a written documentation of 123 things he had done every day to enhance the compliance program so for career development reasons it can work as well.

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Jason Mefford: And I think it’s good too, because sometimes.

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Jason Mefford: You know people in these professions, you know it within companies, sometimes it’s it’s it’s pretty hard you know I I grew up my dad was a general contractor.

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Jason Mefford: You build a house, you see something tangible right, I used to build furniture, you know when I was younger.

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Jason Mefford: Well, when you build a piece of furniture it’s something tangible that you can see, at the end of the day, you saw exactly what you did and there’s a lot of satisfaction.

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Jason Mefford: In any of the trades, where you use your hands and you see something tangible, but in our professions they’re not really tangible and so doing something like that seems like not only to help him with his career.

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Jason Mefford: With a salary negotiation, but i’m sure that that gentleman probably had much more satisfaction in what he was doing because he was documenting.

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Jason Mefford: Those things that he was doing you can’t see it tangibly, but if you write it down on your desk calendar, then you can feel good about what you actually did that day and that provides a lot more.

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Jason Mefford: job satisfaction, makes us happier in general to write, because we can see that we’re actually having an impact we’re we’re moving the needle in the way that it needs to go as well, so.

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Jason Mefford: Great stuff great stuff.

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Jason Mefford: Alright, so tom’s got a new book compliance handbook second edition available through lexis nexis so.

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Jason Mefford: Make sure in the in the notes down below there will be a link for you to be able to go out and pick up a copy of that, but you know before we do a quick wrap up here Tom I always love to bring in music when I can as well to right so.

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Jason Mefford: So so here’s here’s a couple of musical questions and then we’ll kind of end with a with a you know sage advice from Tom at the end, but so if I throw out, are you are you more a Beatles or more of a stones person.

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Thomas Fox: Well, I have to start off with acknowledging that ringo starr’s at one today.

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Jason Mefford: he’s fabulous he’s the forgotten beetle that people do not realize how big of a George and ringo people don’t don’t give the credit to, but without those two men, the Beatles would have never been what they were yeah so.

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Jason Mefford: And i’d be birthday rainbow.

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Thomas Fox: Evelyn said in an interview that they asked him, who is the most talented people and he said rinka.

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Thomas Fox: which really surprised me about six or seven years ago, the stars aligned with ring oh playing in Houston on a Friday night and Paul McCartney playing in New Orleans the next Saturday.

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Jason Mefford: So you get to go to my life.

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Thomas Fox: And not.

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Thomas Fox: Having said all of that, I must stones guy.

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Jason Mefford: yeah well it’s.

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Jason Mefford: funny yeah yeah go ahead yeah.

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Thomas Fox: sympathy with the devil’s my favorites.

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Jason Mefford: yeah no I when I was younger I remember you know, listening to the stones a lot love the Beatles but but yeah growing up, I was more of a stones guy cuz I was I liked heavier.

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Jason Mefford: The older i’ve gotten I mean i’ve got respect for both of those groups, I mean there’s some stuff that the stones have done that holy crap I mean, but you know i’ve gotten more respect for both of them and what they’ve done.

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Jason Mefford: So yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Anyway, well that’s good it’s see it’s it’s interesting what everybody has done because I remember one of the ringgold stories that I heard was.

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Jason Mefford: One of the songs I listened to a lot is here comes the sun, and that was one that the George wrote.

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Jason Mefford: interesting story on that he actually played hooky one day he was supposed to be in the recording studio and he said screw that and he hung out with clapton for the day at clapton sales and any ended up writing this song and then he came in.

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Jason Mefford: And it was written in seven eight.

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Jason Mefford: Which is a hard path anyway, but he handed it to ringo and he’s like rainbow you got to come up with some way to do this and he’s like.

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Jason Mefford: You know kind of thing and it’s like just like that ringo pulled out, that that signature drum track that’s actually in that song to to a song that was.

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Jason Mefford: yeah so.

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Jason Mefford: A lot of a lot of talent in that man so anyway, I just love bringing up bringing up music a little bit too so.

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Jason Mefford: And usually one of the questions is who’s your favorite Beatles so you already answered that one for me, too, so I got that but.

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Jason Mefford: But yeah now, one thing I like to do at the end, too, because you know both both you and I have we’ve been in our careers for a long time.

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Jason Mefford: And it’s always helpful because a lot of people who listen are still early on in their career, so you know if you were to look back now to maybe a mid 20s Tom what advice would you give your younger self now that you’ve already gone through your career.

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Jason Mefford: And so now we’re much or much wiser in in in where we’re at but yeah what advice would you give to yourself that other people could benefit from as well.

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Jason Mefford: have to be like earth shattering either, but it’s a.

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Thomas Fox: I would say.

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Thomas Fox: professionally.

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Thomas Fox: master subject matter.

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Thomas Fox: The reason I picked compliance.

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Thomas Fox: In my solo career was that.

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Thomas Fox: In 2009 or 2010.

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Thomas Fox: There were maybe five or 10 fcp a cases and I could read the F CPA I could read the case law, I could give tom’s interpretation.

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Thomas Fox: of both the case line the CPA and it was as valid as anyone elses.

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Thomas Fox: Because there’s just a very few case law, just one of the few areas of the law that there are so few cases and and so.

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Thomas Fox: I spent that that time I spent basically the Malcolm gladwell 10,000 hours and writing and learning, and so I had that subject matter expertise, but if you can go niche you can go very big yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Well that’s good advice, because I know so many people that I thought I talked to especially earlier on in their career.

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Jason Mefford: They want to go everywhere right I want this certification and that certification and that certification, which is fine, but what’s what’s the method behind it what’s the reason behind it and.

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Jason Mefford: becoming truly a master in a particular subject matter, will do you well for your career right and so that’s great advice time it’s worked well for you as well, so yeah.

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Jason Mefford: Everybody know, everybody knows you.

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Jason Mefford: For that, now, but again it’s the important part of that you brought up there to that Malcolm gladwell 10,000 hours.

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Jason Mefford: You know that’s from from one of gladwell his books, where it really kind of talks about that look it takes about 10,000 hours.

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Jason Mefford: To really become an expert in something right and so again that might seem like a big thing, but just as we were talking about compliance right, how do you get 10,000 hours of expertise in something you start today, and you do alone.

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Jason Mefford: Right and you just kind of get started with it and go but.

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Jason Mefford: Great advice well Tom thanks for coming on today it’s.

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Jason Mefford: You opened my eyes to a lot of stuff too, because I haven’t had my head in compliance as much the last few years, and so to hear some of the changes to it, your new book that came out the compliance handbook second edition.

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Jason Mefford: Great stuff for people that are in this area, and especially if if they haven’t really thought about it there’s been a lot of changes the last year or two that they probably should get more educated on start spending some of those 10,000 hours that way so.

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Jason Mefford: Any any last words Tom before we head out.

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Thomas Fox: So thanks so much for having me on, and please buy my book yeah.

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Jason Mefford: go out and buy buy his book like I said we’ll put a link in the in the section area below so make sure you click on that link and go get his book, so you can get the nuts and bolts.

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Jason Mefford: on how to actually implement and improve compliance in your organization so thanks Tom and we’ll see everybody on the next episode of jammin with Jason see ya.

With business entering the digital world, we need to start looking into alternate populations to begin hiring from. Sure there are people of different skin colors or sexes, but what about individuals with physical disabilities or people from the autistic population.

Sometimes to tackle certain situations, a different point of view can be highly beneficial.

Not only can business reach out and bring in employees from different walks of life, but companies can also look into how to treat their employees equitably. For some employees a flexible schedule would be helpful, or perhaps a cafeteria type benefits plan may work better for your employee base.

Julie Thompson joins us today on the Jamming with Jason podcast to discuss positive ways that industry can change in many ways for the better!

Listen in at: http://www.jasonmefford.com/jammingwithjason/

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Jason Mefford: Welcome to another episode of jamming with Jay said hey everybody I am excited today we have a great show in store for you i’m talking to Julie Thompson.

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Jason Mefford: And we’re going to go some places in this in this podcast that we obviously need to talk about.

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Jason Mefford: Julie, has a great background and so i’m excited to get into this because we’re going to talk a little bit about her career path.

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Jason Mefford: And how you know career paths are not necessarily typical career path so an example of how you can get to where you are in your career.

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Jason Mefford: But also we’re going to jump in and talk about some other topics around Corporate Social Responsibility diversity equity and inclusion which are some hot topics right now.

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Jason Mefford: That your organization needs to be considering so you don’t end up having some risks pop up that she had don’t want to have pop up and cost you millions of dollars so with that let’s rowley episode.

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Jason Mefford: hey Julie welcome.

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hey.

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Jason Mefford: i’m having me.

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Jason Mefford: Well i’m excited I know you know we usually we have the benefit of the green room beforehand that so I know a little bit about what is coming and i’m excited because it’s.

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Jason Mefford: tangentially our careers kind of crossed a little bit because I was responsible for some of the stuff around the h&s.

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Jason Mefford: CSR kind of stuff as part of my career to something i’m pretty passionate about as well, but I know you know when we were talking, you said you you you you didn’t take the the typical career path.

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Jason Mefford: And so you know a lot of people listening, they could be an internal audit or you know a lot of people do listen to that, I mean some people may not be an internal audit anyway.

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Jason Mefford: But I think it’s always interesting to kind of hear what someone’s career path is so that nobody who’s listening thinks oh my gosh i’m locked in, and this is all that I can do.

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Jason Mefford: No folks career path can take you anywhere in fact most of us end up someplace that we never would have expected ready I think that’s kind of what happened to you right Julie.

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Julie Thompson: Absolutely and well said.

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Julie Thompson: Yet, and actually we also had a little bit of a discussion, you mentioned that when we’re all young and we’re thinking about what we’re going to do when we grow up.

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Julie Thompson: You know it’s the firemen policemen the teacher the nurse, you know, maybe it’s a stay at home mom whatever that might be, but I never even heard of an internal auditor, when I was young.

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Julie Thompson: So that clearly was not on my radar However, I did end up going to the University of Kentucky where I received a bachelor’s degree in accounting.

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Julie Thompson: And this was back in yes, I will admit it 1983 and that date will only become important because of some specific requirements that fortunately for some of the younger listeners, are no longer in place.

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Julie Thompson: But when I was in college the typical career path was you graduated you got a job in an accounting firm.

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Julie Thompson: Hopefully, for most people they were looking to go into one of the at that time big eight accounting firms and, if not it’s fine if you ended up in in someplace else, but it was typically.

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Julie Thompson: Accounting to do auditing, no less, and then from there you found the perfect client and you ended up with a job there, and it was going to be in some sort of finance or accounting role and then away your for your went to rose to the top.

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Julie Thompson: Well, in my case I didn’t leave that job in public accounting when I first got out of school.

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Julie Thompson: It turned out to be good news, though, because I did land a job in lexington where my family still was so i’m still able to live with mom and dad for a period of time.

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Julie Thompson: In a company called I recall company, so I wanted to work instead of in public accounting in corporate accounting.

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Julie Thompson: And that was a wonderful education for me and I was exposed to auditing because of the external auditors and internal auditors, I still had to work with them, as I was doing some of the more mundane accounting activities.

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Julie Thompson: And then, what happened was I passed the CPA exam.

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Julie Thompson: Well that’s when that 1983 date comes back into play in those days, once you pass the CPA exam you had to get two years of not just accounting experience but public accounting experience.

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Julie Thompson: that’s not me then on the path of finding a job in public accounting I narrowed down a few cities long and the short of it, I ended up working for pete Mitchell in Dallas Texas.

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Julie Thompson: So, then, I was doing you know the typical auditing, but it would have been third party auditing working too many hours a week, then I want to even admit now.

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Jason Mefford: But there were still again there are better and many people on this call either have been or will be.

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Julie Thompson: going through the same thing, but I was exposed to a lot of different industries, the hope again was that I would then jump back on that typical track find the perfect client and up there.

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Julie Thompson: That did not happen again, and instead I got a call from a headhunter and I ended up with a job at Ryder truck rental in Miami Florida, who had nothing to do with people mutual in Dallas.

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Julie Thompson: and ended up going into their internal audit department spent about four years there was asked to do their very first audit of the environmental function.

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Julie Thompson: And in those days, it was early days, so I basically had a blank sheet of paper.

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Julie Thompson: That by itself, I found very intriguing and it took me less than 24 hours after receiving that assignment, I was literally on the phone calling my parents saying you will not believe what I get to do.

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Julie Thompson: And, most people thought that was not, by the way, including all the managers of the department, none of them wanted this job because they had some sort of an idea of.

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Julie Thompson: having to read environmental regulations, the rest of it is pretty much history, I stayed there in that position for a little over five years.

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Julie Thompson: And I moved away from there when Ryder truck rental wanted me to go back into the accounting function, for you know, an upward movement.

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Julie Thompson: I gave it a shot and found I just simply wasn’t happy and I really missed the environmental side of things so.

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Julie Thompson: I just went off and started my own company knew I was taking a little bit of a risk, but thought you know i’m still young there’s plenty of time and if it doesn’t work out guess what i’m still a CPA.

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Julie Thompson: So I had a backup plan i’ve never had used the backup plan, but I have still kept it all these years just.

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Julie Thompson: Handing.

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Jason Mefford: And I think I think that’s important because you know.

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Jason Mefford: Again, a lot of people who listened to this are you know they’re earlier in their career and they’re trying to figure out where to go, but a couple things that you said there that are that are important right you had a backup plan you were a CPA.

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Jason Mefford: You know, one of the reasons why I got an accounting degree and a CPA was the same reason right, you can always get a job as a CPA.

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Jason Mefford: So there’s always something to fall back on to you know I have that plus my father was a general contractor.

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Jason Mefford: So I grew up on job sites, I mean if I needed to I could strap on.

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Jason Mefford: That work belt again and go build houses, because I know how to do that now again just like you said, luckily.

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Jason Mefford: i’ve never had to build houses I haven’t had to go back and be a CPA right since since I kind of left the accounting area but.

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Jason Mefford: there’s kind of a takeaway for everybody who’s listening right, yes, as you’re going through your career, whatever it looks like you’re going to be accruing i’m using an accounting term there just to be funny haha.

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Jason Mefford: Different skill sets that will serve you or allow you to fall back on to them, even if it doesn’t work out right like you said, if it doesn’t work out I can always go back, but for you, it worked out because you’ve been doing it for over 20 years now right.

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Julie Thompson: Yes, it has worked out very well the other thing I would like to add to what you said is even my nieces and nephews I recommend to each of them, as they are growing up when they get to the College level I don’t care what your interest is you need to take at least one accounting class.

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Julie Thompson: You need to understand numbers it doesn’t matter what business you’re in it doesn’t matter if you own your own business, whether you work for someone else.

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Julie Thompson: You need to understand the numbers yeah then it like in my case because of this switch over you know she was starting an environmental, I mean that’s very technical.

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Julie Thompson: I was fortunate that writer when I moved into their environmental department, they provided a lot of training, but once I got on my own.

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Julie Thompson: me understanding numbers and being able to talk to people from a technical perspective as well that opened up doors that would never have been opened up, had I not know the numbers.

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Jason Mefford: yeah very.

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Jason Mefford: very true.

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Jason Mefford: Well now, maybe let’s kind of transition, because there’s some there’s some three letter acronyms that I want to throw out there.

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Jason Mefford: that’ll that’ll just kind of get us talking right so again there’s there’s acronyms and they change over time, but we’re gonna.

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Jason Mefford: we’re gonna say some things so I just want to kind of help define them for people right so you’ve already used eh and S right so eh and s environmental, health and safety right.

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Jason Mefford: Right right Okay, make sure I should that’s an old term that i’m familiar with.

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Jason Mefford: Right so we’ll we’ll talk a little bit about that now there’s a new term that people are throwing out there, E s G right So what is it yes G stands for.

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Julie Thompson: E, F G is environment, social and governance.

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Jason Mefford: Okay, environmental, social and governance so that’s a newer term that a lot of people previously had been referring to as CSR I think right corporate social responsibility.

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Julie Thompson: Well CSR would typically fall under probably the S and or the the GPS.

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Julie Thompson: because CSR corporate social.

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Julie Thompson: Responsibility and so you would have the social aspects, but CSR goes beyond into that governance piece as well.

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Julie Thompson: So, you would have some overlap in both the S and.

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Jason Mefford: The G OK, so the SG is really kind of pulling together the concepts from eh and S and CSR under the same umbrella.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, Okay, so you everybody i’m getting educated to because.

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Jason Mefford: I grew up doing and managing you know in leading edge Jeunesse and CSR functions, but now they would be called E, F G, so if if you hear that term.

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Jason Mefford: that’s what it means now a third term that I think you know as we talked before kind of ties under this is a new one that I hadn’t heard but D I right D.

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Jason Mefford: What does that stand for, and how does that tie into everything to.

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Julie Thompson: Sure, so dei is diversity equity and inclusion.

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Julie Thompson: And some of this is not going to be new as far as what it represents, but it is kind of a new term, much of which has come out of what has been going on in this country and around the world, obviously, for years, but particularly in the last year.

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Julie Thompson: With racial injustice, but it goes beyond just racial injustice and so it’s a concept that businesses and other organizations are adopting.

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Julie Thompson: That they are really focusing in on making sure that their workforce is in fact diverse and that could be diverse, though not only from skin color.

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Julie Thompson: It includes physical characteristics your religion your sexual orientation or gender physical disabilities and then a new term i’ve learned recently is neuro disabilities.

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Julie Thompson: Which just as a reference to people’s brains work differently, which is actually quite an interesting Funk idea, even though it sounds very simplistic so.

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Jason Mefford: Because it’s interesting that you say that because it’s not actually I mean the word disable you know it’s like handy capable i’m not handicapped and handy capable.

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Jason Mefford: Because I know temple grandin who has autism she has been big on this for a long time of trying to help you know severely autistic people.

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Jason Mefford: integrate more into some of these areas because, again, she says look our brains work different and so there’s certain problems or certain challenges that autistic person.

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Jason Mefford: can see from a difference, a different way of looking at it, then the rest of us can that can have a huge impact, and I mean I love that woman, because she she has been an example of that in her own life and some of the the changes in you know.

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Jason Mefford: agribusiness you know cattle cattle slaughtering other stuff like that have more humane ways of actually harvesting animals for food.

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Jason Mefford: that she came up with because again her brain works different than other people so she could solve a problem.

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Jason Mefford: that other people couldn’t solve, but if she wasn’t included in the process, we would never have that right, and a lot of these great inventions great process changes are done by the people that most of us think are a little crazy.

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Jason Mefford: So we need more crazies around.

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Julie Thompson: You we do, and I think there’s a huge opportunity and I don’t know we hadn’t planned on going off on this tangent but i’m going to head there.

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Jason Mefford: Anyway, just go, we can go wherever we want to go.

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Julie Thompson: Yes, so one of the things i’ve been thinking a lot about diversity equity inclusion for many, many, many months and very specifically with respect to the eye and auditing.

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Julie Thompson: And then you take it another level, but the I in the just auditing.

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Julie Thompson: Because there’s a big difference between financial auditing and you would know this, but some of your listeners probably won’t but there’s a big difference between financial auditing.

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Julie Thompson: And ehs auditing there’s actually a number of differences, but some of the bigger things.

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Julie Thompson: Are that you tend to spend less time looking at documentation on a vhs audit and spend a lot more time with what they call boots on the ground.

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Julie Thompson: So you are walking through facilities, whether that’s a manufacturing facility, whether it’s an agribusiness whether it is.

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Julie Thompson: You know i’ve been on tankers that are holding oil and brown water and on bridges that are 200 feet above a river, I mean there’s a lot more of getting out and you’re you’re, not just in the arena with people in offices that’s you don’t spend some time there.

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Julie Thompson: So now we’ve been forced into this virtual audit environment.

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Julie Thompson: And my thinking has been are we slowly missing this opportunity, as we get back to business with respect to.

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Julie Thompson: People that may fit into that dei category, but not based on their skin color or their religion, but on the disability side so either with a physical disability or potentially a neuro disability.

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Julie Thompson: So the example you gave autism, is one that I have been thinking about there are many autistic people that are just brilliant.

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Julie Thompson: And the way that they think and the things that they can they see but they may have some struggles with or not be as good as other people with their social skills, well, maybe they can be part of an audit because they don’t have to do the interviewing.

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Julie Thompson: Instead, they can be looking at the processes, the procedures and how the things are really put together and how they work and come back and give their perspective.

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Julie Thompson: The same thing with people with physical disabilities, you know I in my career and I just had this discussion, the other day with someone so i’ve been auditing now for three decades.

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Julie Thompson: In three decades, I have worked with one person that had a physical disability one person in 30 years.

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Julie Thompson: Now I think again with this virtual world, this is the time to be thinking about are there, people with physical disabilities, that we can welcome into this.

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Julie Thompson: And even start looking at the College level education of encouraging them and saying hey, this is a career, that would be open to you.

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Julie Thompson: Because they can do parts of the audit, you know virtually I think the hybrid audit virtual virtual in part in person it’s here to stay and, in some areas, it may be solely virtual five or 10 years from now, so that’s that’s where my brain has been going with.

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Jason Mefford: What you guys will know and let’s let’s go down that further too right.

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Jason Mefford: Yes, again it’s the.

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Jason Mefford: auditor’s as a group, tend to be rather homogenous right we’re all alike in a lot of ways, and like you said you know the.

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Jason Mefford: The typical career path for somebody to come into auditing you know, like you said accounting degree CPA big big for experience right so so there’s a lot of people that have had kind of some of the same same experiences, there is a lot of you know, again.

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Jason Mefford: In always it’s it’s a rather homogenous from a personality perspective as well right because it attracts people that have a certain personality and so a lot of people with that personality.

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Jason Mefford: tend to gravitate to this job, but you know, again, are we doing ourselves a disservice.

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Jason Mefford: By not trying to be more inclusive right of people with different personalities, with different backgrounds, with different you know whether they’re neuro or physical you know disabilities in a way, because, like like you said you know it’s you know.

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Jason Mefford: Just because somebody’s blind or somebody can’t hear or someone’s confined to a.

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Jason Mefford: wheelchair doesn’t mean they can’t do most of the work that’s done right.

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Jason Mefford: I mean, yes.

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Jason Mefford: If a person is bound to a wheelchair you’re not going to ask him to climb up on top of a grain silo and stick their head in.

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Jason Mefford: Right, but you could probably use a drone now.

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Jason Mefford: I mean, technically, we could write it, they could be sitting down there and fly a drone up and look down in right that’s a lot better than sticking my head and like I used to have to do.

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Jason Mefford: Especially.

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Jason Mefford: Some of the things like fish soluble tanks oh man.

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Jason Mefford: You gotta wrap.

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Jason Mefford: But, but I think that’s a great point is our, how can we be more diverse provide more equity right and equity can be pay.

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Jason Mefford: Other different things as well, and how can we be more inclusive because I mean we know there’s lots of research, the teams that are more diverse and more inclusive they perform better than other teams.

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Julie Thompson: Absolutely, and both the equity and inclusion piece I don’t want to shortchange those because they are are just as important, and probably everybody’s mind.

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Julie Thompson: So, going back to the passivity, so it isn’t just enough to have people that look different.

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Julie Thompson: or think differently on your team you do need to make efforts to make sure they are included and included doesn’t mean they’re just sitting around a table, you know, while everybody else is talking, it is meaning soliciting the ideas from them.

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Julie Thompson: And they are going to be able to contribute a perspective that the others in the room, are not willing to be able to to you know, keep them engaged.

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Julie Thompson: To talk to them do they feel like they are being included do they feel like they’re being excluded and other things and.

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Julie Thompson: I just think that we’ve got some real opportunities there, but it is important to make sure that people on both sides feel comfortable having the discussions.

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Julie Thompson: and making adjustments to improve that and then on the equity side, as you said, it’s not just about pay it’s about things like.

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Julie Thompson: You know, do do does everybody have the same opportunities.

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Julie Thompson: And maybe they don’t but maybe it’s because of something you’re not even aware of so maybe your organization offers to pay for college.

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Julie Thompson: Well, the single mom of three kids that are in grade school and you know that that woman or man may not be able to find the time to do it so.

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Julie Thompson: Is that really a benefit to them and how can you work with them are there other adjustments at work that you might be able to provide to help them take advantage of things like that so equity.

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Julie Thompson: is much bigger than I think even when I went into it, I was thinking, well, it would be pretty easy to adjust everybody’s pay right well.

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Jason Mefford: it’s far Oh, it is not.

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Julie Thompson: I ya.

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Jason Mefford: Know cuz I know I actually had a person on my team female she came in, with less experience so obviously you know HR said, this is the the pay level where she needs to be okay.

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Jason Mefford: put her in at that level but very quickly, she rose up and was performing much, much better than the rest of her peers, the problem was I was handcuffed by HR I was not allowed.

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Jason Mefford: To pay her what her value was at the time, because it exceeded the stupid pay requirements that HR had right and that’s an example of equity, you know from the pay side.

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Jason Mefford: And every everybody who is who’s managing people and doing stuff.

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Jason Mefford: You know, it is a fact Okay, you can argue all you want, but it is a fact that women earn less than men and minority groups earn less than.

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Jason Mefford: whites okay it’s just a fact, and that is something that we need to fix because equal work should be equal pay, so if that’s not what’s happening in your group i’m preaching a little bit because it does piss me off.

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Jason Mefford: If it’s not that way in your organization try to get that fixed.

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Jason Mefford: But, but I love what you said to about there’s other parts of equity and and what we’ve tried to do for so long is treat everyone exactly the same.

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Jason Mefford: But we are not all exactly the same, and so again, maybe it’s you know again equitable, for you know hey if somebody can do the work that everybody else does in 30 hours that normal.

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Jason Mefford: Normally would take 40 hours wouldn’t it be okay to just only make them work 40 or 30 hours but Pam for the 40.

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Jason Mefford: or like you said if you’ve got the single parent with little kids at home.

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Jason Mefford: wouldn’t it be equitable to allow them to have a flexible schedule, yes, right and be compassionate and loving towards that person and allow them to.

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Jason Mefford: Take care of their responsibilities and again everybody’s different right so Oh, we offer great benefits but are those benefits good benefits for everybody.

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Jason Mefford: Or is kind of the cafeteria plan you know, like you can pick this and pick that some people would just rather have the cash.

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Jason Mefford: and other people would prefer to have the benefits So hopefully some of these discussions will get organizations to finally pull their head out.

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Jason Mefford: And maybe offer more more of a menu of benefits for people that is more equitable for each person and not necessarily the same across the whole thing yeah all right i’m off my soapbox let’s go back let’s talk.

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Julie Thompson: I enjoyed that we need people on their soapboxes from time to time so.

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Jason Mefford: Good well because it is, I think it’s you know and as we talked before to some people might kind of poo poo this and say all this is just you know, the latest fad thing it’ll go away.

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Jason Mefford: it’s not going away.

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Jason Mefford: And if you don’t address it, it will cost your company millions.

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Jason Mefford: and millions of dollars Okay, so this is a real risk that needs to be addressed right, this is, and this is what one of the reasons why we’re talking about it today because I don’t know that enough people actually are.

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Julie Thompson: Yes, no I agree it is most definitely a risk, I mean you’ve got your first of all you’ve got the risk that if you are not addressing it within your organization.

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Julie Thompson: People are aware of these issues where are you going to get the ones to work for you.

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Julie Thompson: So you’re going to lose the best talent, because they’re going to go to the organizations that are addressing this.

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Julie Thompson: And then, secondly, if you don’t have the the right work environment, you will find yourself at the wrong end of a lawsuit now whether.

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Julie Thompson: you’re successful or the other party is successful, think of that the time the money, the energy that is spent on that that impact should be spent on activities that actually make money we’re auditing so.

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Jason Mefford: Give me out of there’s more money.

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Jason Mefford: that’s right, but I think it’s interesting, so you know, again, I mean we kind of talked about yesterday and and the whole you know the older CSR.

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Jason Mefford: eh and ass.

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Jason Mefford: And I know it, you know again we’re old enough that we remember this to.

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Jason Mefford: Where people would say oh that’s poo poo kind of stuff as well right, this will go away environmental is not that big of a deal in fact I used to work for a guy and.

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Jason Mefford: And the numbers okay in the 1930s right for him to do this because we didn’t know.

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Jason Mefford: But you know, he said at one point it’s like you know why I built all my factories next to the rivers, so I could dump all my crap in them right because that’s just what everybody did.

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Jason Mefford: Back in the 20s and 30s now, then we realized it wasn’t Okay, but a lot of people then thought well we can’t afford to do this right.

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Jason Mefford: Both from a CSR eh and S standpoint, but what did we learn it actually costs last in the long run to do it right.

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Jason Mefford: Then, then, to do it, what we think is cheap and then have to pay afterwards right and again you spent decades in this in this area, so is that is that right, am I thinking about this right.

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Julie Thompson: You are thinking about it absolutely correctly and I think first of all, over time, I think some costs have.

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Julie Thompson: come down as demand, just as you would expect, typical supply and demand as there’s greater demand, then the costs come down and some of those have been a little bit easier on the decision making.

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Julie Thompson: But it goes beyond just your pure the cost going in now there’s a big emphasis on taking a look at your suppliers your customers are looking at you as well.

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Julie Thompson: So if you go back to the the suppliers, do you want to be doing business with someone who is not doing the right thing from an environmental, health, safety, social diverse, I mean you throw them all of that in there.

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Julie Thompson: If you are a supplier to other businesses, you can expect, for your customers to be looking at you, and whether.

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Julie Thompson: you like it or not, you should be looking at your suppliers for those same traits as well to be doing the right thing in all of those areas.

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Julie Thompson: Particularly as the next generation is coming up, they are very aware of these issues from you know they’re worried about, and they should be.

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Julie Thompson: about what kind of world that we are leaving them, and is it too late, they don’t think it’s too late, I don’t think it’s too late, I hope, we’re all right.

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Julie Thompson: But it’s going to be too late, if we don’t you know, make the right efforts, but those are the customers of the future, those are going to be the suppliers of the future, they are far more knowledgeable than I will ever be.

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Julie Thompson: On this, they are making much more sophisticated decisions in their not only their their buying choices, but their career choices.

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Julie Thompson: So you will lose the top talent if you’re not doing the right things, because they are asking the questions when they’re interviewing for a job and the interviews don’t last very long, if you don’t have the right answers because that’s not who they want to work for so it will cost you.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and it’s interesting because really all of these all of these acronyms that we’ve been thrown out here today right is a lot of them started off being regulatory driven Okay, you know when the EPA was set up some of the different you know.

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Jason Mefford: environmental regulations safety regulations you know.

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Jason Mefford: kind of came from the government of saying look companies, you know you’re you’re hurting your employees your employees are dying you’re polluting the rivers, whatever right.

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Jason Mefford: So we’re going to legislate or regulate, you know how you do business, and so there there’s always been I mean for a long time that regulatory pressure.

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Jason Mefford: To do the right thing you know if we don’t if we’re bad actors long enough, then the laws change and you can’t do that anymore.

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Jason Mefford: what’s interesting now, we still have that regulatory pressure, but just like you said now we’re starting to have some demand driven stuff from.

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Jason Mefford: Our employees from our customers from our suppliers that they’re also requesting, and I think they’re probably moving faster.

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Jason Mefford: than the regulations will too, and that at the end of the day, again, you can ignore this go ahead and ignore it, if you want to.

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Jason Mefford: But a lot of people aren’t going to want to work for you or with you or buy from you going forward and there’s enough, you know watch groups NGO non governmental organizations out there.

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Jason Mefford: That are blowing the whistle on on some of these things so don’t think you can hide, because in the day of the Internet and everything else everything eventually becomes made public, one way or the other.

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Julie Thompson: Absolutely absolutely and I do well i’m thinking about it on the east side you know we tended to talk about you know environment.

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Julie Thompson: Social and then the government side for those that aren’t really interested in a career say to be out walking around, so it is because some people might might not want to walk across that bridge that’s 200 feet over a.

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Jason Mefford: rush I love doing that so.

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Julie Thompson: Well, I do i’m scared of heights and my client didn’t tell me beforehand, but that was going to be part of the job I managed to get through it, but I think I held my breath and.

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Julie Thompson: walking cross and watching the railing but anyway, with SG one of the big things is there is an effort, not just an effort we’re past never I mean it’s it’s an ongoing effort would be a better way to put it.

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Julie Thompson: Where we’re trying to put numbers to these things so we’re quantifying them and there’s a number of organizations, I mean ISIS is working on something gra global reporting initiative which has historically dealt with environmental and you know.

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Julie Thompson: Social kinds of things fall under like their umbrella.

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Julie Thompson: So if you’ve got an accounting degree you’re whether you’re interested in auditing or not you very well could find yourself in a job when you are looking at these things and trying to quantify them.

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Julie Thompson: You will also see ESP is become very big on Wall Street some of the big investment firms are putting out their own.

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Julie Thompson: models for how do you evaluate yesterday you know what are the specific components How did we measure you know, on a scale of something.

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Julie Thompson: Whether they were good or bad, and then, how should that impact your investing decisions as either on an individual investor or a much larger and institutional investor.

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Julie Thompson: What is happening right now is those are not all in alignment So if you look at something that fidelity puts out versus you know somebody else.

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Julie Thompson: State street or blackstone black rock I mean they’re all looking at this, they all have their different models and which does make it difficult to say okay well.

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Julie Thompson: This investment firm says this and this one says that and how do they compare it’s almost impossible.

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Julie Thompson: But we’re heading in a direction where, at some point that’s probably going to come somewhat closer together, at least, for you know the public, but this is definitely going to be a big area.

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Julie Thompson: They are hiring people all over the world at high positions within these companies to be looking at SG yeah So this is the wave.

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Julie Thompson: maturing, it is not going to go away.

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Julie Thompson: anytime soon, but there are career opportunities all over the place, have you been in the financial or auditing arena, in my opinion.

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Jason Mefford: Well, and to kind of wrap this up, you know from from where we even started right your career was not necessarily a typical career it kind of wound you around you found this space you fell in love with it it’s something that.

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Jason Mefford: You know, obviously, everybody that’s listening, you can see that julie’s passionate about some of this stuff right.

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Jason Mefford: And and it’s it’s it’s been a great career for you, you know as well, and so you know same thing, some of the people that are listening right now.

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Jason Mefford: hey if some of these things that we’ve been talking about diversity equity inclusion SG you know some of this stuff if that resonates with you there are lots of jobs in these areas and, like you said, people are trying to ramp up people are trying to ask the questions I went to a.

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Jason Mefford: It was a conference about two or three years ago, you know of even trying to look at how do we.

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Jason Mefford: How, how do we hold corporations accountable from something other than a p&l, how do we create like a.

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Jason Mefford: At the time, CS our accountability statement to really show is this a company that is a sock on society or somebody who actually make society better off in totality right, you might be making a lot of money.

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Jason Mefford: But if you’re polluting and you’re hurting and you’re doing some of these other things that like you said we’re trying to figure out how to quantify some of it.

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Jason Mefford: Once we figure out how to quantify it and we figure out who the net net positive people are on this worth on this earth, and who are the net negative.

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Jason Mefford: You hope your company’s not one of those net negatives, because I can’t imagine this going to be very good for you going forward so lots of jobs in the area as well, so.

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Julie Thompson: Absolutely, and you never know where you’re going to end up I don’t know if I can say anything that is more true with respect me.

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Julie Thompson: I certainly had no idea definitely not as a youngster because I didn’t even know such a thing existed, but even in college, I thought I was going to be on that traditional path.

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Julie Thompson: Here I am.

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Jason Mefford: Well, so did I mean I was you know again when I was in college, I was going to be a partner at Arthur Andersen That was my career track and then and run happened and we imploded and I never knew where I was going to go either.

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Jason Mefford: So it’s it’s that’s very, very true, and so I think it’s you know a good good reminder at the end to to let people know again if you’re thinking about your career.

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Jason Mefford: don’t worry too much about it plan for it, try to go where you want to go but realize there’s going to be twists and turns.

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Jason Mefford: All along the way, and it’s Okay, and sometimes you just have to jump and do it.

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Jason Mefford: But you know, like Julie was talking about, you know, have a backup plan, just in case said, if it doesn’t work out, but more times than not it works out exactly the way you’re hoping to so anyway well it’s been great talking to you Julie, thank you and.

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Julie Thompson: Likewise, thank you, I enjoyed it.

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Jason Mefford: I enjoyed it too got me up on my soapbox for a little bit now i’m gonna get back down.

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Jason Mefford: And we’ll get back, but.

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Jason Mefford: hey thanks for coming on i’m sure we’ll we’ll probably have some other things we needed to talk about in the future too, so you might have to be back on a future episode as well.

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Julie Thompson: I would be happy to thanks again have a great day.

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Jason Mefford: thanks you too.

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Julie Thompson: bye bye bye.